Wasn't Maranatha the school of the Wisconsin Baptist Fellowship? I don't remember ... I never had anything to do with it. I could be confused.
2atlow8, I still think the nature of hte accreditation is what the difference is. If they were pursuing regional accreditation, I would agree with you. But their position was always regarding the secular influence of accreditation. TRACS does not have secular influence. Therefore, it doesn't violate what they said regarding accreditation.
BJU begins accreditation process
Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by aefting, May 27, 2004.
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In the same manner who gives permission to marry: God or man? It is the right of the pastor, ordained of God to marry a couple. This is a God ordained right, which the government ought not to have any control. Yet you willingly submit to it without any thought??
To blast another institution for accepting accreditation, when it doesn't change their curriculum, their standards, or interfere in any way with their day to day operations; when you accept the government interference into a God given right such as the marriage of a couple is absolutely hypocritical and wrong.
Furthermore, the principle of separation and church and state has more to do with churches, not universities or colleges.
DHK -
To be clear, I think accreditation is a great thing for BJU to do. I think in the long run it will make a great academic situation even better. It will also take away some of the stigma of attending a "religious" school. 25 years later I still get "the look" when folks find out where I went to college.
I sincerely hope accreditation does one thing, I hope it changes the "inbreeding" of intellectual ideas. A BS, MS and PHD all from the same institution is considered invalid in many academic circles. -
But as far as willingly submitting to it, Where in Scripture is a pastor commanded to marry anyone? Where in Scripture is the church even said to be involved in a wedding? Nowhere. We have, out of tradition, added a lot of stuff in, like church weddings and pastors performing. God never instructed a pastor to do that. The solemnization of marriage has always been an affair of the state.
It is true that God ordained marriage. But the state, ordained by God, has established what it means to "be married." So long as the state does not contradict what God says, then we are fine. The state does not force me to marry anyone. They permit me to do it. God does not force me to marry anyone. A marriage is in the sight of God, but it is also in the sight of the state.
As for a license to marry, most states now do not require it. Michigan is one of those states; Ohio is not. I recently married a couple in Ohio and had to get a license to make it legal. To marry them otherwsie would have been an illegal marriage. But when I performed the ceremony, I was performing a service to the state. It was not a part of my "pastoral duties" as outlined in Scripture.
Furthermore, the state does not require anything with respect ot marriage, other than that I be a licensed or ordained clergy man of the church at which I serve.
But we are rather off topic here.
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Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
In '68 when MBBC was founded, Wisconsin was considered a "preacher's graveyard" by the brethren. So, any Fellowship or Association would at the time have been too weak to start a school.
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Very true, Circuitrider would be able to speak more specifically to the specifics of the Wisconsin Fellowship, and the history of MBBC.
Can a non-Christian serve as a viable guide for what Christian education ought to be?Click to expand...
A school that only has ministry or Bible degrees may not see the benefits of accreditation, but MBBC, Faith, Cedarville, Clearwater, BJU, etc, all have strong secular degree programs, and as such, should subject those programs to the same rigorous academic standards that purely secular schools undergo.
An interesting fact about Maranatha's Liberal Arts programs. I graduated with a Liberal Arts degree, and my wife recieved a certified Elementary Ed degree, we both took enough credits in Bible and church ministries to earn a Bible degree at most schools in addition to the general education and specific degree related courses. IMO, a school with that focus is prepared not only to turn out great preachers and other "full-time" ministry graduates, and also very well educated lay people who can be invaluble assets to a church because of their Bible and Church ministries training. This is proven by the graduates from MBBC that are out there, at least in most cases. One advisor at MBBC actually recommended that students looking to go into ministry should take the General Studies degree at MBBC, with a Bible or Church Ministries minor, and than attend seminary to complete the academic preparation.
Maranatha was forced by the accreditation process to ensure and prove that they were doing what they claimed were their goals for each degree program, their Bible programs did not change, they were validated by the process as well, as fulfilling the goals of the catalog. It essentially is a truth in advertising exercise, something that many schools would probably benefit from, if they were wise and humble enough to submit to the scrutiny of fellow educational professionals. -
Originally posted by DHK:
Then many a great man of God preached for nought. God called them; they went out and preached. History is replete with many examples. The ministires of Dwight L. Moody, Adoniram Judson, William Carey, would all be meaningless. So would the ministries of most of those recorded in the Bible.
Who sent Aquilla and Priscilla, who ended up having a church in Rome?Click to expand...
There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the government or any societal organization outside of the nation of Israel or the church was ever involved in the institution of marriage.Click to expand...
As for the church, there is no indication in the NT that the church played any role in marriage. The NT indication is that the believer is to be subject to the state. In teh issue of marriage, when the state tells a couple ot get a marriage license, they must get one in order to be biblically married.
We would thus deduce that the responsibility of marriage falls under the obligation of the church, and never the government.Click to expand...
Not if it is the sole right of the church to marry them. What shall we say then? Shall we obey God or man? Is it the right of the government to tell the church and give the church the authority for marriage. Or does this authority come from God?Click to expand...
If you read my first post on page one, I broght the matter of separation of church and state up there.Click to expand...
The government has no place in the church. [/qutoe]To a certain degree yes. The state has no authority in the church itself. That is not to say that the state cannot make regulations concerning some things, such as the church building, etc.
There is far more government interference in the licencing of a pastor to perform a marriage or officiate at a funeral, then in the accreditation of a university or college.Click to expand...
I think the principle of church state separation is way overblown. The point of the principle is that the governing body of the church is not legislated by teh state, nor the state governed by teh church. It has nothing to do with simple things like marriage licenses.
BJU graduates are snapped up very quickly by different organizations all across the nation. They don't have a problem gettng jobs, nor do they seem to have a problem transferring into most universities in the U.S. Their academic reputation precedes them.
Therefore what is there to worry about?
In a Christian university or college, should not our educational academic standards at least meet or excel the basic standards set forth by an accreditation committee? I certainly would hope so.Click to expand...
But again, since BJU is not a church, the church state issue doesn't apply here.Click to expand... -
Pastor Larry said:
Can a non-Christian serve as a viable guide for what Christian education ought to be?Click to expand...
Besides, it is not the Christian aspect that accredidation evaluates, but the educational aspect. I would think that at a school like BJU, with a broad range of liberal art type majors, accredidation would be more important. I mean, if we are evaluating the quality of, say, the nursing program, aren't there things that need to be consistent with the secular counterparts? A "specialty school" like a Bible College seems to have less practical need for such affirmation.
With everything said, accredidation or no, I would be tickled pink if my daughters end up at BJ. -
If they can't, why does an institution like BJU have professors with advanced degrees from secular institutions?Click to expand...
The educational aspect at a place like BJU cannot be separated from the Christian aspect. What BJU has always said is that the two are so closely tied as to not be separated.
Interestingly enough, the nursing program is already accredited, as is the aviation program, and the education program. Now if you want to talk consistency, there is where you should be hitting ... :D ... Nursing and aviation require accreditation to even exist. Education is accredited through the SC Dept of Ed. Those are mandatory, which is BJIII's reason. They have to be accredited to exist. Regional accreditation is a voluntary subjugation of Christian philosohpy and ideals to secular criticism and mandate.
I am not saying he is right, mind you. I am saying that is his argument. -
I am more interested in what TRACS accreditation is worth. What does it mean for future, current, and past students?
Andy -
Pastor Larry said:
Under SACS, a professor from a place like Boston U or Kansas could tell BJU that they have to teach a certain way, or include an unbiblical philosophy in a class.Click to expand...
Here's something to consider- Couldn't one of the potential benefits be that an institution like BJU is revealed to have even a higher standard than its secular counterparts? After all, it was the propgation of Christian principles during the Reformation that led to the Renaissancein culture. To be able to be salt and light as part of the peer review teams would also give the chance to express Biblical perspective and share the gospel. -
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I cannot speak to each of these men since I don't know enough about them. I was speaking to the biblical pattern laid out in the NT, which is our authority. There, the local church is the ordaining body, after seeing the evidence of call, gifts, and character.Click to expand...
Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
--Paul on his three missionary journeys, ordained elders in every church that he went to. The church didn't ordain the pastors. Paul himself did.
Paul chose Apollos to be the pastor at Corinth, not the church.
Paul chose Timothy to be the pastor at Ephesus, not the church.
Paul chose Titus to be the pastor at Crete, not the church.
The church at Jerusalem had James as their pastor. I doubt that he was ordained by the church, but rather chosen by the Apostles. The only thing recorded that the church chose were 7 servants whose primary purpose was serving tables and taking care of widows (Acts 6:1-4)
The church at Antioch speaks of the sending forth of Paul and Barnabas as missionaries but that is quite a bit different then the appointment or ordaining of a pastor. Even then the church isn't even mentioned, only the leaders are.
First with respect to Israel, they were a nation, and their marriage laws were part of the civil law. In Israel, there was no church state distinction. To say that the laws of the nations in which they lived never played a part makes no sense. They were a nation unto themselves.Click to expand...
As for the church, there is no indication in the NT that the church played any role in marriage. The NT indication is that the believer is to be subject to the state. In teh issue of marriage, when the state tells a couple ot get a marriage license, they must get one in order to be biblically married.Click to expand...
To abide by government dictates about marriage licenses, whether performing the marriage or being married is biblical obedience. There is no capitulation here whatsoever. A couple living together without a valid state marriage license is living in fornication.Click to expand...
The authority comes from God and is given to the state. As I have poitned out, there is not one indication that I am aware of that marriage is defined solely by the church or the religious institution. In fact, the fact that there are married unbelievers shows that it is not solely a church issue.Click to expand...
I don't remember seeing it there. Sorry. Since BJU or MBBC is not a church, I don't think it applies really. I believe that there is a valid principle of separation of church and state. But it is not applicable here since there is no church involved.Click to expand...
Have you ever tried to get licensed to preach? When I got licensed to preach, I gave about a 3 minute testimony of salvation and my doctrine. The church body voted. The church secretary sent a letter to the Secretary of State the next day and within a week, I had a license to solemnize marriages in Ohio. You cannot get accredited that easy. In the state of Michigan, you do not even have to be licensed with the state to marry, as I understand it.Click to expand...
I think the principle of church state separation is way overblown. The point of the principle is that the governing body of the church is not legislated by teh state, nor the state governed by teh church. It has nothing to do with simple things like marriage licenses.Click to expand...
BJU graduates are snapped up very quickly by different organizations all across the nation. They don't have a problem gettng jobs, nor do they seem to have a problem transferring into most universities in the U.S. Their academic reputation precedes them.
Therefore what is there to worry about?
In a Christian university or college, should not our educational academic standards at least meet or excel the basic standards set forth by an accreditation committee? I certainly would hope so.Click to expand...I have made this argument many times. I absolutely agree. Accreditation is a problem for middle of hte road students trying to get into middle of hte road grad schools Most top tier schools will accept the top tier students from BJU.
But again, since BJU is not a church, the church state issue doesn't apply here.Click to expand... -
Link to TRACS web page
There is a great deal of info about TRACS on this site. I'm on a slow computer right now, so I didn't take the time to download the PDFs that may offer some more insight into what TRACS requires and what the accredited status offer.
What I do know is this: TRACS accreditations puts BJU into cooperation with a whole basketful of institutions with which BJU should not be cooperating if they were consistently applying their stated principles of secondary separation. I'll copy the list to the bottom of this post. Now, one could argue (and I count myself among them) that this is a legitimate level of cooperation, but BJU and its representatives have not historically provided for levels of fellowship concerning separation.
In fact, the chief advantage of TRACS is that it respects the religious identities of the members. That in itself makes BJU inconsistent. In the past, BJU has not shied away from political associations, such as people like Pat Buchanan and Alan Keyes (both Roman Catholics) speaking on campus as candidates. However, any cooperation with a religious purpose has been anathema.
Additionally, one could easily argue that just as SACS or North Central (Faith and Maranatha's accrediting agency) could change in their requirements, so could an ecumenical association of Christian colleges.
By the way, SACS is significantly different in its requirements from North Central. That is one reason it has been harder for BJU to pursue regional accreditation than Faith and Maranatha. I believe that Clearwater is accredited by SACS, but they may have a different governing structure that makes it easier for them than BJU. That I do not know.
The real problem is that BJU has not simply admitted that they were wrong all along--on two points. The first is that Bob Jones III has engaged in public attacks on sister institutions in the past, as swaimj described. Northland has also been a party to these attacks. I've also heard second-hand accounts that corroborate these stories, but since they are of a more private nature I'll leave them alone.
The second error is that BJU has artfully avoided explaining what has changed to make TRACS a viable option. Read the news release, and you'll see the vague language about TRACS has all of a sudden now become a viable option after BJU has been watching them carefully over 25 years. What has changed with TRACS??? Perhaps there is something. It might be a good idea to explain it so you can't be accused of hypocrisy. I suspect that BJU's thinking has changed more than TRACS, but when you are such a dogmatic opponent of accreditation for so long, it's much easier to speak vaguely than it is to admit that you may have miscalculated.
Here are the TRACS-accredited institutions:
</font>- Beacon University</font>
- Beulah Heights Bible College</font>
- Boston Baptist College</font>
- California Christian College</font>
- Christian Life College</font>
- Clinton Junior College</font>
- Faith Evangelical Lutheran Seminary</font>
- Heritage Bible College</font>
- Hillsdale Free Will Baptist College</font>
- ICR Graduate School</font>
- International Baptist College</font>
- International College & Graduate School</font>
- King's College and Seminary</font>
- Liberty University</font>
- Luther Rice Bible College & Seminary</font>
- Maple Springs Baptist Bible College and Seminary</font>
- Mars Hill Graduate School</font>
- Messenger College</font>
- Michigan Theological Seminary</font>
- Northwest Baptist Seminary</font>
- Northwest Graduate School of the Ministry</font>
- Piedmont Baptist College</font>
- Shasta Bible College and Graduate School</font>
- Southern California Bible College & Seminary</font>
- Southern Evangelical Seminary</font>
- Southern Methodist College</font>
- St. Petersburg Theological Seminary</font>
- Temple Baptist Seminary</font>
- Tennessee Temple University</font>
- Trinity Baptist College</font>
- Williamson Christian College</font>
- Word of Life Bible Institute</font>
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The first is that Bob Jones III has engaged in public attacks on sister institutions in the past, as swaimj described. Northland has also been a party to these attacks.Click to expand...
I don't think anything about TRACS changed. I think we should take what BJIII said at face value without attributing prideful motives to his statements. Don't you think it is wise to watch an accreditating agency like TRACS for several years before you decide that it is a safe move? Especially, when you have genuine fears about accreditation?
BJU is a very conservative school. As such it moves very slowly. That is one reason why it has stayed so consistent with its founding principles for so many years. I think you ought to give them some slack.
Andy -
Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
Plus there may be a generational shift happening of which we are unaware. Notice my emphasis on conjectural may be. The following is also pure conjecture on my part. Dr. Bob, Jr. has been home with the Lord a sufficent amount of time for III to set into motion his own legacy. Not to mention the fourth generation, Steven Jones, is working his way up the leadership ladder.
I agree with aefting I can see III being passionate about his position without even coming close to personally attacking the men he mentioned. All five men are personal friends to a greater or lesser degree of closeness.
[ May 29, 2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ] -
All five men are personal friends to a greater or lesser degree of closeness.Click to expand...
Andy -
PastorGreg MemberSite Supporter
MBBC has no official affiliation with the WFBC, although most WFBC churches would support MBBC and vice versa, and the same is true of Northland. There is a lot of overlap. (By the way, does NBBC have football yet?) ;)
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How did I miss this thread? We are talking about a lower tier accreditation, mostly for government aid, etc, in TRACS. It is NOT major accreditation like Maranatha BBC or Faith have. There is massive difference.
Maranatha was not accredited in its early years, mostly because of the terrible misconceptions and deliberate misinformation (much of it from BJU and its "loyal alums). I later went on to the University of Wisconsin as a "test case" to see if MBBC grads and credits would be accepted.
I commend BJU (though disagree with their liberal arts emphasis) for starting this minor accrediting program. It will give credibility to their degrees and - hopefully - counter some of the terrible negative publicity of the University because of their racist past. -
...the University because of their racist past.Click to expand...
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