gotta love an old computer - double then triple post
C.H. Spurgeon and election
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JerryL, Apr 13, 2008.
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Sorry - I kept getting an error - so tried again and again.
Hmmm - wonder how much a new computer is?
Think I'm on a dinosaur? A machine running Windows 98 from when Windows 98 was NEW???? LOL -
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If some are chosen by God to be saved it remains that some are chosen by God to suffer eternal torment in the Lake of Fire.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Based on the Calvinist belief shouldn’t the verse read:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels and those God did not elect: -
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Ann,
The person said, and I quote: “If you do not believe in election then you deny the Bible.”
To even make such a statement is arrogant and prideful.
Dave -
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His Institutes have nothing to do with the Bible ?!! And fish don't swim in your neck of the woods I guess . Calvin is highly regarded as a Bible expositor . In some non-Calvinistic circles he is very esteemed .Even Jacob Arminius praised him .You have a lot of crow to eat Linda . Your statements from here on out will be suspect for their possible dishonesty . -
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I do not think that the teaching of Calvinism is too severe, I think scripture is clear that the teaching is false.
The disagreement on Calvinism should not divide believers yet the teaching is not true and cannot stand in light of clear scripture to the contrary.
The great thing about God's Love is that He allows us to reject Him. He truly wants all to come to repentance but only those who choose to accept His Gift of salvation will live with Him for eternity.
Dave -
Linda said it was pretty dry reading. That would indicate to most that understand what reading means... that she had read the portions she looked at.
Calvin's Institutes are not God-inspired. They are Calvin's thoughts on what he thought God meant when His Holy Spirit inspired men of old to pen down the Scriptures. The Institutes are nothing more than a commentary, and not to be taken as Authoritative. -
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
There are many things to be considered in this verse, which the average reader is completely unaware of:
“All that (the things) that My Father is giving Me…” Jesus does not speak of men, but of “things” (conditions?). The article is in neutral (pan o didosin), not the masculine (pas o didosin) that would have been required to show Him as addressing men. Notice that these are things the Father “is giving” now (present tense, not past tense), but they will come in the future (i.e. “will come to Me”). Since it does not say “All the Father has given Me will come to Me,” there is no evidence of predestined division of things, let alone the division of men.
The same neutral article is used in v39 “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me (pan o dedoken moi) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up […] at the last day.” John 6:39. Notice that even the KJV acknowledges it’s an “it”: “but should raise IT up.” (The word “up” is used in lieu of “again” making “again” redundant).
However the second part of v37, does speak of men: “…and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
Therefore v37 speaks of two separate things:
a) The things that My Father gives Me which will come to Me, and
b) The man who comes to Me, whom I will not cast out.
Cast out of what? Of that which “will come to Me” (the Kingdom)-- future. Jesus is saying: You will certainly come to Me to where I go, if you come to Me now by believing, because My reign in My Kingdom is certain; it will come to Me, as the Father promised. -
Spurgeon: Calvinist brainwashing necessary to enter heaven.
"Now, I do not ask you whether you believe all this — it is possible you may not ; but I believe you will before you enter heaven. I am persuaded, that as God may have washed your hearts, he will wash your brains before you enter heaven." -
The Bible teaches election.
1Pe 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
The Bible teaches man is responsible.
Act 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
The Bible teaches man can resist the Holy Spirit.
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing!
The Bible teaches that God reveals Himself to all people.
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Election, free will, responsibility are all a part of God's plan and we have to accept each one even though they do not seem to be compatible.
Someday we will not see dimly as we do now, but God will reveal all things to us and we will understand. But for now, we have to accept all things through faith whether we understand them or not. -
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Rippon,
Genesis 1:31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
If man is depraved and does not have the ability to choose good, does a saved man have the ability to choose good? Does a saved man have the ability to choose evil?
Since Adam was looked at as being “very good” by God, how was he looked at after he sinned? Was his ability to choose good erased after the fall?
God created Lucifer (satan) and God said he was perfect in his “ways from the day he was created, till iniquity was found” in him, how could he have chosen evil not to mention the third of the angels who also rebelled against God?
If Adam and Lucifer are examples of "Good" creations of God, is God then the author of evil?
Dave -
Act 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Why would God command someone to repent who He had determined would not enter heaven?
Acts 17:30 crushes the "I" petal. -
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Dave -
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That has nothing to do with "the 'I' petal" though . The third plank against the teachings of the Remonstrants dealt with effectual grace . The Lord is going to spiritually arrest those of His choosing . -
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If you knew the truth, you would not believe as you do. If there is any obstacle in your way it is the truth.
Good luck -
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