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Featured Call on the name of the Lord is necessary

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Himself says in Mark 1:15, that both "repentance and faith" are the core of the Gospel Message. He also says in Luke 13:1-5, that "unless you (sinners) repent, you will likewise perish". Again, He says in John chapter 3 that the sinner must be "born from above", in order to be saved. What I pointed out to you about quoting only the passage from Ephesians, that here Paul does not speak of "repenting", which shows that all of the requirements for salvation are not in this passage. No sinner can be "in Jesus", is they are "unrepentant", which is what some of the "Reformed" teach, when they insist that this is not a pre-requirement for ALL in order to be saved. It is such teachings that are "false", and not based on the Bible.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I am attempting to be brief as not to weary you and loose your concentration. If this becomes a problem, I will try to shorten the posts even more.

    I assumed that you were aware that there is two types of sorrow.
    They are best expressed (imo) in 2 Corinthians 7:
    For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, (leading to) salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
    Let’s see how it is that Luke 13 shows the statement of Christ concerning this same type of repentance:
    1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4“Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

    6And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ 8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”
    First what the Lotd is stating:
    1) He was acknowledging the Jews were taught what we might think of as “retribution theology.” That the amount or type of punishment is equal to the level and/or type of sin committed.
    2) He is showing such thinking is false, that unless those listening repent (change the direction they are going) they also will perish.
    3) He is giving the parable of the fig tree as an example that God, although agrees with the keepers for a time and is patient, will not tolerate the continual rebellious Jews (or anyone that bears His name that is obstinately rebellious) but will “cut them down.” (This done in 70AD). It was also that of some believers in both Acts and 1 Corinthians.
    4) Fruit was the outward display (John the Baptist said, “...meat for or of”) that repentance has occurred rather than mere worldly sorrow. Like the old commercial, “Where’s the beef?”​


    What is not being stated.
    1) Repentance brings salvation as in eternal life. Neither Luke nor 2 Corinthians have that focus.
    2) The repentance precedes salvation. Neither this passage in Luke nor Corinthians is about eternal life, but physically not being “cut down.”. ​

    So what is a summery.

    The changed person bears fruit. No changed person bears fruit.

    Taken the above with 2 Corinthians, one can see that God is directly involved in the repentance that leads to salvation (life preservation) and God is also involved in “cutting down” those who don’t turn their life around.


    Pay attention to this, for this is vital. In neither passage is salvation as far as the eternal state as what is in play! I have repeated on purpose this so that, in your reading, you might have less chance of missing the truth.

    Often this is missed in the rush to exuberance! Rather, both passages is the folks being saved or not from early physical death.

    The believers were already believers when Paul addressed their repentance, because some had already been taken for excessive sinfulness. Example: in this group Paul earlier wrote “...some of you are already asleep....”

    In the Luke passage, it was the physical death the Jews were concerned, and not eternal death.

    If you think I am wrong, you need to use more Scriptures to prove your thinking, not just post a reference. Because then we know if you actually have a framework from which to draw your statements, as I demonstrated , above.



     
  3. II Timothy 2.19

    II Timothy 2.19 New Member

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    The thief on the cross simply said "remember me"
     
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  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    great example, thank you.

    I will take from your thinking and expand a bit to help the casual reader.

    The acknowledgement by the thief that they were justly condemned is that same attitude of all truly repentant believers. That is not the same as one "confessing" from being caught, but confessing because they are truly guilty.

    The thief at first shared in the mockery, but then (though not precisely stating such) later by rebuking the other thief and admitting the justice of their own crucifixion and the injustice of Christ's, he was demonstrating repentance, a repentance of recognition not of the need for salvation but recognition that salvation was at hand. He acknowledged he would go to paradise, and wanted The Lord to remember Him "say, howdy" to him.

    Some actually try to fit some asking for salvation into the statement of the thief, when, "Remember me in Paradise" was a statement of trust that he would be in paradise, too, a statement that paradise was his estate. Do we not want our Lord to remember us? It is sad for it to be said, "Depart, I never knew you."


    The question that remains is does "life" precede such an acknowledgement?

    Ephesians 2 would certainly demonstrate that is exactly what took place and does take place:
    4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

    In Acts 11:18 there is a verse that can be looked upon as supportive of the idea that repentance brings salvation:
    "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."​

    A casual reader may see that verse as showing some process or timeline. However, the human ability of repentance is not what is found in the statement.

    The statement is that it is "God... granted repentance unto life." It was the authority of God that granted the ability of repentance. The ability to repent is not life, rather it is that confession that life has already been granted and manifesting in them. The confession that God has done a marvelous work that only He can do by creating life that obliges repentance and confession of that life.

    In John 20:31, there would also be (to some) a process or timeline given:
    "...but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."​

    Again, the timeline would rests in this thinking that one first believes then one might have life.

    Two problems:
    1) belief is an indication of an already changed (repentant heart) as demonstrated by your view of the thief.
    2) belief does not result in a "might have life" but an assurance of life eternal. The "might" is not taken as "perhaps" or "chance" such as one "rolling the dice" rather it is that which is possessed, assured, held in trust, similar to that held in an escrow account that it "might" be distributed to taxes, insurance or in some other obligation.​

    Very good example, thank you.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It is not a matter of "free will" when men/women come under the convicting Ministry of the Comforter, it is a matter of men /women being enlightened by that convicting ministry, then...yielding to the truth.

    I agree men are not made regenerate in order to believe and place saving faith in Christ, but, it is not within the ability of the natural man, of himself, to understand the spiritual things of God. God is wholly Sovereign in salvation. He gives men the ability to understand, and while it can be said it is man's choice, we must also, I think, consider it as reactive to the Spirit's Ministry. If I came on here and said "Saved by Grace, that is the dumbest thing I ever heard anyone say," you would probably react. You might get mad, offended, or even laugh because you have the strictest confidence in your doctrine. So too, when God intervenes in the lives of the natural, there is a reaction. Unfortunately, man's proclivity is towards rebellion and sin against God, thus the many/few ratio Christ taught.

    And just to clarify, I'm not saying this is the dumbest thing I ever heard, lol. just giving an example. I was actually cheering you on until you got to the free will issue.

    This...

    ...is a great statement, and true.


    God bless.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Does the Lord himself change their minds and natures concerning Jesus and salvation, or do they do it to themselves?
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The premise of your question is in error.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It is reactionary. Here is an example:

    A man goes to the doctor and is told, "There is no question, you have cancer, and you only have four weeks to live." The man's response is fear.

    He did not use "free will" for that reaction to come about.

    Even so when men come under the conviction of the Spirit's Ministry, they react to the truth they are enlightened to (Sin (that they are sinners and separated from God), Righteousness (that they have none, and only Christ is righteous), and Judgment (that they are destined for Hell, a Christ-less eternity of separation from God).

    And just as men will react differently to being told they are dying of cancer, even so men who are enlightened to the Gospel do the same. And with man's proclivity towards rebellion and sin, we understand Christ's many/few teachings.

    Natural man can no more change his mind, or his nature, than a leopard can change its spots, vote, or apply for a diver's license.

    God is wholly Sovereign in salvation, that is why He is called the Author and Finisher of our faith. If I author a book, do you ascribe it's writing to the reader?


    God bless.
     
  9. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    No. But neither is the reader forced to read the book. The reader must take the book and read it.



    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Correct, but the analogy is being told one has cancer. No-one decides to have cancer any more than they can decide to be conceived and born into this world separated from God. And no-one chooses to come under the ministry of the Comforter. That is God's effort, not man's.

    That they are reading the book is implied in the example, those not reading would be compared to those not under the convicting ministry of the Comforter.


    God bless.
     
  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Nope. Analogy fails. People who decide to go and hear an evangelist preach are deciding to come under the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Whether or not God ministers to that person via the Holy Spirit is up to God.


    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And you not only have no Biblical Basis to teach that, but have the testimony of the Word of God against you.

    Need I quote the Scripture that teaches the natural man is blind to the spiritual things of God? I would think you are familiar with them by now.

    I will present one passage, and ask you to show why it does not teach man has no inability or desire to know God, and then ask you to address my posts which explain in detail my own position. You have quite a bit to work through.

    Unless you think I am to simply accept your opinion.

    Here is the first passage that shows natural man does not have "free will" in regards to salvation:


    1 Corinthians 2:9-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.



    Taught by most preachers as referring "just how great Heaven is going to be," the actual context Paul presents is The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    But you are saying Paul goofed, for you are saying "Eye has seen, ear has heard, and of course it has entered into the hearts of men...the things which God has prepared for them! After all...they can get up and go to Church one day and get saved, right?"

    Actually no, because before a man or woman decides they should go to a church, God has already intervened in their lives and arranged for a reason for them to go.

    What you suggest is that men can perform the convicting ministry of the Comforter, and that is in error.


    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



    According to your soteriology, men reveal that knowledge which Paul is here saying...the Spirit of God reveals. They go to a church, and a man in the pulpit preaches...and reveals that knowledge. You sure you want to stick with that?


    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


    Again...Paul is wrong. Right? Men can know the things of God of themselves. Might need a little help from another man (or woman, depending on what type of Baptist you are, lol), but sure enough, we need not heed Paul's teaching here...


    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


    Or, that we might know the things given to us from other men, right?

    What do we receive? Who do we receive it from?


    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


    Who teaches it? Who's wisdom? Paul must also be wrong in calling it The Hidden Wisdom of God. He goofed calling it a mystery as well.


    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



    Well of course natural man can receive the things of the Spirit of God, Paul. Its a shame you didn't live long enough to have men help you receive a better truth.

    Okay, just for good measure, one more statement for you to consider:


    John 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    Men are not born of God, which is Regeneration, through heritage (blood), the will of the flesh (men deciding to "go to church"), nor the will of men (other men talking someone into going to church), they are born of God.

    God is wholly Sovereign in Salvation, and I would just suggest you look at the Greek and understand better that Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of your faith.

    Look forward to you addressing the previous posts as well. After you have done that, we will move on to other passages showing man's complete inability to save himself.


    God bless.
     
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I'm not going to address your massive dissertation. I fully agree man has no part in his salvation. It's all God's work. I'm merely pointing out that a person can choose to put himself in a position of hearing the Gospel. Whether or not the Holy Spirit influences that person is up to God. If you deny this you at denying reality.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Well, you can have your "reality," and I will stick with the Word of God.

    You do not answer simply because you cannot. Only God moves the heart of the natural man and this through His convicting ministry in their lives. Christ makes that clear, as does numerous passages.

    So one more passage not to answer:


    Romans 3:10-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

    14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

    17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.



    When you can show me why Paul is wrong, hence the Holy Spirit Who gave us this indictment of men, then perhaps you might have something. Until then, if you cannot interact with a Biblical Basis for your opinions, please feel free to keep them to yourself.

    You do have free will, you know, you can make that decision...

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Not arguing with your theology, just your dumb assertion that a person cannot decide to hear the gospel. That's it.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
  16. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Could it be that those who choose to hear the Gospel do so because of the work of the Holy Spirit?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Sure it could be. Also could simply be a decision made by a person.

    "Hey, I'm going to check out that Baptist church over on Main Street. Billy and Janey have been going to their Sunday School with the neighbor kids. They're having a Christmas cantata. The kids are singing in it. It will scratch my eccesiastical itch I get at Christmas time. Do you want to go?"

    "No."

    "C'mon, I don't want to go alone."

    "Oh, OK."


    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
     
  18. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I understand what you are saying. As a Monergist, I believe in something called the Effectual Call. In his catechism, Benjamin Keach answered the question "What is effectual calling" thus:

    "Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit, whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, He does persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the Gospel."

    I believe that those whom the Father has effectually called are done so by the Holy Spirit. Another way of saying it is that no one who is effectually called can be called except by the Holy Spirit.

    Of course, God works even His will in our lives through our choices. I wrote in another thread that none of us have perfect knowledge. We do not know who is elect and who is not.

    John 3:8 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
     
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  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Let me clarify: sure, anyone can choose to "hear the Gospel," but, not a single soul in their natural state can understand the Gospel.

    That is only possible when the Holy Spirit enlightens the natural mind, as Scripture makes clear on both counts.

    Many people "decide to go to church," and that satisfies the religious quality of the natural man. But to "hear" the Gospel, natural man must have God's intervention.


    God bless.
     
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  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Again:


    John 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    Not sure how you can embrace "Free WILL" when the will of the flesh and the will of man is explicitly excluded as a possible means.

    We are "given the power" to become the sons of GOd, born of God...it has nothing to do with man's will or his flesh.


    God bless.
     
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