Well detailed and thought out post Alex :thumbs:
Calvinist, Reformed Theology No Longer Allowed
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by reformedbeliever, Nov 13, 2007.
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What was the rich young ruler asked to do by Jesus? Why did he turn away sorrowful? I don't think you understand the necessity of "counting the cost" of following Christ. This is a Biblical imperative. -
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Brother Bob, this subject beckons you with all of those church fathers right about now. -
The chosing is of people (the believers in Thessolonica).
God chose people, and he chose those people to salvation. The intended result of God's chosing those people is their salvation.
The salvation that is the intended result of God chosing those people comes through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. The instumental means (the through) of their salvation is the sanctifying work of the Spirit and their belief in the truth.
- Context: Paul thanks God "for you" because God "chose you". Paul doesn't thank God for the method, he thanks God for the people.
- Construction: The verb chose has an object. It's you (plural).
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Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Jesus told him in a very straightford way what the ruler had to do to be saved. Of course his heart needed to be changed. Jesus made him realize that by placing this requirement on him. Are you saying that if the ruler had followed our Lord's command he would not have been saved? That would have meant that Jesus was not telling him the truth.
This passage in Luke 14 says the same thing.
Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Jesus frequently uses the word deciple to mean someone who is saved. Many times He asked those He came into contact with to "Come and follow Me." That same request is made to us. But we must first count the coost as these verses say. -
See, no more debate. And all along I thought you were pushing "monergism" and "all of God" and "unconditional election" and "repentance is the fruit, not the cause of salvation" and "free will denies that God is all-sovereign," and "the sinner's prayer is merely an expression of us telling God what He must do for us."
Man -- I been around here a long time and I misinterpretted all that!?
skypair -
"Say smooth things" is the mantra. This is a comfortable place to fellowship.
I would ask you, do these people actually win souls OUTSIDE church when they go home Are these the ones out "street preaching" on the corners? Or are the more likely the ones giving the money for ministries and missions? working in the serving lines at the food kitchen? Habitat for Humanity houses? All that is important but it's works -- the "cumin and anise" -- but not "judgment and [salvational] mercy"
At the risk of being even more controversial (as webdog offered once) what are you repenting to if you realize that you are "elect" already?? Aren't you just having a "pity party" with God if He has already saved/elected you? sorrowful recollections? "I've been such a bad son/daughter, God."
There's a place for that after you are saved (2Cor 7:9-12). But what if God isn't even your Father yet?
skypair -
The RYR couldn't "pull the repentance trigger!" He still thought there was another way. Many Calvies (Baptists, too) do the same. Once they convince themselves that they are "elect" already, they decide that just little change of lifestyles -- which they call "repentance" -- is all that's needed. They haven't "presented themselves a living sacrifice, HOLY, acceptable unto God which is their reasonable service," Rom 12:1 They've offered what they think is holy because they presumed they are "elect."
This presumption of "election" is dangerous. Do you suppose that the rich young ruler felt justified already? The Jesus words were mere "opinion" that he, already saved by the law, could walk away from?
skypair -
I think that is quite a bit off the mark from his actual words, but the gist of the thought is there. They were against his going to India. They were against missions. If God were going to save the elect he could do it without Carey. There was no need for Carey to go to India. That was a ridculous concept.
That William Carey did go to India was the beginning of the modern missionary movement. -
And even if a person, in this case, had not one ounce of Greek grammar, if it is translated most literally to reflect this demarcating nuance, the English can and does render it, as I provided with the ESV, a clear understanding. The emphasis is that we are saved through the Sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the truth. -
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. NIV -
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We are saved by grace through faith...not grace through faith PLUS an upfront commitment to live our lives as seasoned believers. A lost person has no clue how to live a life committed to Christ, so how in the world can this be a requirement in order to be saved?
I know plenty of believers who are committed to Christ, and have backsliden. I was one of them. To claim that we cannot is no different than holding to a works salvation, and refutes much of what Paul stated in Romans about the war between the flesh and Spirit. -
I believe that what John MacArthur is saying in regards to Lordship salvation is that your are saved by grace through faith and that alone, but the willingness to follow Christ and be obedient to Him is the proof of one's salvation. Many are deceived into believing they are saved because they said the "prayer", but the fruit of their salvation is a love and devotion to Christ and a forsaking of the world.
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If He is NOT Lord of your life, you are NOT saved.
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