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Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by charles_creech78, Jul 9, 2007.

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  1. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Waayelll! Lesssseeee!

    Peter denied the Lord three times, even to cursing and swearing about it. (Matt. 26:69-75; Mk. 14:66-72; Lk. 22:55-61)

    Paul disobeyed the Holy Spirit, by going to Jerusalem, ignoring both a prophet specifically sent to warn him, and the brethren who warned him, through the Spirit against going there. (Acts. 21:4, 10-14)

    Peter "played the hypocrite" at Antioch, and was so convincing in the hypocrisy, that he even"sucked in" another apostle, Barnabas. (Gal. 2: 11- 21)

    Paul took a Jewish vow and later went through the rite of Jewsih purification (hence putting himself back under the Mosaic law after he was saved) at Cenchrae and Jerusalem. (Acts. 18:18 cf Act 21:26)

    Paul and Barnabas "fell out" over John Mark. (Acts. 15:36-39)

    Will these five work??

    BTW, none of these were a "sin unto death".

    Ed
     
    #41 EdSutton, Jul 11, 2007
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  2. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    The rich man in the account of Lazarus and the rich man (Dives??) certainly "repented after death".

    Since the defintion of "repent" (metanoeO) is a change of mind", he certainly did, wanting his brothers warned!

    How many times must one repeat that the the definition of 'repent' (metanoeO) in the NT does not mean "turn from sin"? The Greek word for 'turn' (and/or 'convert') is " 'epistrephO", not "metanoeO".

    Ed
     
    #42 EdSutton, Jul 11, 2007
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  3. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I like that, especially the 'edited' part! :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  4. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Wait just a doggone minute, please. Which is it? The two above posts do not say the same thing. Is there a difference between "horrible sins" and "ordinary sins", here you are referring to?

    And just what makes this distinction, if there is one?

    This is a fair question, given what you have put forth in the posts.

    So which is it?

    And does the blood of Christ actually blot out, and "keep on cleansing us from all sin," or just some of it? (I Jo. 1:7)

    Ed
     
    #44 EdSutton, Jul 11, 2007
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  5. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Good post!

    Ed
     
  6. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    After my various comments, I will now answer the title and opening question of the thread.
    There are actually two questions contained in one, in the thread title. Unfortunately the second is not totally addressed by the title.

    So yes, a man can sin a sin unto death after being born again. In fact, I suggest only one who is already a saved individual can sin this sin, Biblically. For in the context, he is called a "brother". And no, this does not mean it is limited to males, for today's PC crowd. BTW, these verses show a difference, and also that "all unrighteousness is (in fact) sin", as well.
    And no, "eternal death" or "second death" is not what is being spoken of here. This is a premature physical death, as I read and compare other Scripture with this one. While I am not necessarily agreeing with all the implicatons of what several others in this thread have already said, they have summed up this part very well, IMO.

    Ed
     
  7. mmetts

    mmetts New Member

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    Among unbelievers, I would definitely share with them DHK's doctrine of maturity in the Christian faith. Like raising a child in the way he should go.

    Among believers, I would share more sharp doctrine. I have convictions about the lack of "newness" in DHK's brief exposition/summary on Christian maturity. Of course, you are correct DHK, exegetically. But when I read your post I felt as though it left out the Holy Spirit's work of making us new. I know DHK is not advocating works of men for salvation, but any doctrinal summary of sanctification during a Christian's walk needs more Romans 6! Much like the Philippians quote earlier which regarded the idea that it is God who works in us.

    Also, on the Greek "telios" operating as "complete" in the context of Matthew 5:48, well, their must not be a proper word in English to parallel. Otherwise you are left with a sentence like "be ye therefore complete even as God is complete". I'm not advocating sinlessness, or an idea of perfection but, like Brother Bob, I have convictions regarding the weightier sins which have been mentioned in this thread.

    Also, I am not very familiar with John's theology. I bought a commentary on it due to this and am going to take up study. I had an idea though, a "sin unto death" (if the death is indeed a reference to spiritual death) then he might be refering to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which of course is unpardonable? I don't think a believer commits that sin though. Hope this helps. :1_grouphug:
     
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    That defies the scripture of sin unto death, if true. He was not longer in a position to repent. I say ever lost man will change their mind when the flames hit their backside, is that "repentance", I don't think so.

    Hbr 6:6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

    I think Repentance is just a little bit more than just changing the mind, it also must involve the Lord.

    I never have accepted your definition of "repentance" to just turn around. If it repent from some man made rule, ok, but we are talking about what is against God, "sin". You must include that he turned from "sin". I don't think the rich man was still sinning, do you???

    Repentance is to turn from and not do it anymore. Do you think the rich man, turn from and didn't do it anymore or COULDN'T DO IT ANYMORE.

    So you think because the rich man was cast into hell and couldn't do what he was before that he turned? :) You would too.
    jeepers!!
     
    #48 Brother Bob, Jul 11, 2007
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  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    What are you accusing Apostle Paul of here Ed?

    7: And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
    8: And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
    9: Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

    Paul did the bidding of the Lord. Are you making it up as you go Ed???

    Acts. 15:36
    36: And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
    37: And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
    38: But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
    39: And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

    Eph 4:26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

    Why don't you cut Apostle Paul some slack Ed;, He may of had good reason for not wanting Mark to go, you do not know now, do you???

    I expected better of you Ed;?

    BTW Ed; We had this discussion before and I cannot remember if you agreed with DHK that the scripture we are discussing was talking about someone receiving an early death? If you did not agree with the early death, excuse me asking. If you did agree with the early death and the Lord said this person had committed a sin, where there was no repentance, how would an early death help him?



     
    #49 Brother Bob, Jul 11, 2007
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  10. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Well, you know how it is with some of us. We just do the best we can, you know, like giving Scriptural examples, when called on. :)

    One did not have to have the "indwelling Holy Spirit" in order not to sin, else no one before Pentecost could have done this. I cetainly do not figure everything the OT saints did was actually sin, since they did not have the Holy Spirit. In fact, the only two individuals ever said to have "walked with God" were Enoch and Noah, neither of which had the indwelling Holy Spirit. (Peter)

    I am not accusing anyone of anything. Biut Scripture does say that The Holy Spirit, through these believers warned Paul that he should not go to Jerusalem. He went anyway, even ignoring the prophecy of Agabus, who was sent to warn him, also. I presume Agabius did not just suddenly 'get a hankerin' to up and travel just to warn Paul, on his own. If the Holy Spirit told you or me to do or not do something, and we did it anyway, would you not consider that to be sin? (Paul)

    How did you manage to overlook Peter at Antioch?? Just wonderin'! (Peter)

    Paul was never told to take any Jewish vow, that I can find. But God did not stop everything because he did it, and still used him, even though he had done something that went against his own preaching and writing found in Scriptures, about not being under the law, any more. (Paul)

    There were two in that fight, so I'm perfectly willing to "cut Paul some slack". Barnabas may have been the one wrong, entirely. Or it could have been Paul. Scripture does not assign any blame on this, but the two "fell out", over Mark. So assign the blame to Barnabas. I figured one of them did 'sin' in this, but I could be wrong here. I would still have expected better from two apostles, personally. (Barnabas and Paul)

    And your question was about "disciples and Apostles", remember?

    Ed
     
    #50 EdSutton, Jul 11, 2007
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  11. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I've skimmed through the thread and I don't see any clear answer to these questions:

    Is there a sin (as in a single, specific sin) that is unto death? If so, any guesses as to what that sin may be?

    Or is the passage saying there are many sins unto death, and when you see someone commit any such sin, don't pray about that? In this latter case, anyone have any ideas what such sins may be (besides the disrespecting of the Lord's supper)?
     
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Why? They were human just like you and I.

    I really never read where Paul went anyway, I thought they tarried seven days.

    Agree.

    Yea, as long as I have the same privilege to respond.
     
  13. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Of course, but please slow down. I ain't got done editing my last post yet! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    We accept all the other scripture teaching that OSAS, but this one which is telling us how impossible it is for a child of God to go back to the devil, we don't accept it for what it is. IMO
     
  15. mmetts

    mmetts New Member

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    Great point. But, Paul's authority greatly overwrote any of NT prophets. Agabus could scarcely be called a prophet too, by even NT standards. His prophecy was awfully incorrect and he was wrong on several major details. Yet, the text is clear, he prophesied in the Holy Spirit.
     
  16. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Since I have never defined repentance as "turn around", at all, I don't get this statement.

    In Scripture, the "object" of "repent" is defined by the context. What I have said continually, is that the "repentance" necessary for salvation is as follows - "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Ac. 20:21) and/or "repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." (Heb. 6:1) I have also said that "repent/repentance is, in essence, the 'flip-side' of believe/faith."

    There is nothing wrong, per se, with the phrase "repent of/from sin", although the phrase is not to be found in Scripture. It is something that the Christian should do - change your mind (thinking) about sin, and not do it, and that on a continual basis, IMO. But there is not a 'one size fits all' definition with an object of "repent".'

    And I have asked many times exactly what sins "did God repent of" or "not repent of" in the OT where He is said 30 times to have repented or not repented. (I ask the question for those that insist that repent "really means 'repent of (your) sins'".)

    My question has been answered in a year and a half, exactly zero times!

    Wonder why?

    Gotta' run for now!

    Ed
     
    #56 EdSutton, Jul 11, 2007
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  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    The day that we are saved Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit, comes and indwells the believer giving him the power to overcome temptation. Salvation is all of God. God saves us, and God keeps us. His grace is sufficient for us. Perhaps the most common theme spoke of in the NT associated with the believer after salvation is suffering. It is something we don't like to think of, but it is there, and the Holy Spirit gives grace to see us through.

    Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
    --It is not just God's will to believe in Christ, but also to suffer for him. Suffering is part of the Christian life.

    Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    --Why the caveat put here? We are heirs if we suffer with him. Again suffering is part and parcel of the Christian life.

    Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
    --Paul returned through all the cities wherein he had started churches, appointing pastors, exhorting the believers, and telling them that they must suffer much tribulation to enter into the kingdom of God.
    Again suffering is associated closely with salvation. They suffered as believers, after they were saved.

    Paul suffered much. We know that from his own personal accounts. But how did he deal with it?

    Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    --He had to reckon his body to be dead unto sin. He had to say no the carnal desires of his flesh every day--treat them as if they didn't exist. He knew he was in a spiritual battle, not a carnal one.

    2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
    --Every thought and imagination had to brought into captivity; unto the obedience of Jesus Christ. He would win the battle with his mind submitted to the Holy Spirit. He would crucify the flesh.

    Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    --A cross is an instrument of death. Christ, along with the two thieves were executed on crosses. They were crucified; put to death. It was the common form of execution. Paul says that he has put to death his carnal desires. He treats himself as if he were dead. Yet he lives. It is not "him" (Paul) that lives. It is Christ that lives in him. His life is totally surrendered to Christ. Every action and thought must be surrendered to him. Though he has a body of flesh, he doesn't live by the flesh (carnal desires), but by the faith of the son of God.

    In 1Cor.15:31, he describes how this is an on-going battle for he says:
    "I die daily."
    --Every day he puts his body to death. It is not a one time act. Sanctification is an on-going process with the help of the Holy Spirit yielding oneself to Christ.

    Jesus taught the same thing:
    Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
    --If you will follow Christ you must deny yourself--say no to those things that you want; you must take up your cross. Christ died on the cross--an instrument of death. Put the body to death. Say no to all your desires and fleshly desires and yes to the desires that Christ has for you. Do it daily. Then you are fit to follow Christ.

    Luke 9:62--No man having put his hand and turning back is fit for the kingdom of God. Discipleship is not easy. It takes suffering. Suffering is always associated with the Christian life, as is perseverence. It doesn't mean you won't sin; or you won't fail. "A just man will fall seven times and get up again." (Prov.24:16).

    It is difficult but it is the most rewarding and satisfying life one could ever find. "My grace is sufficient for you."
    "I am come to give life and live more abundantly."
     
  18. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    There is no single sin, except perhaps Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which can sentence a believer to Hell. The question is rather who is the master of your life. Jesus said that no man can serve two masters. If someone serves Satan rather than Christ He will suffer the second death. There is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
     
  19. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    No?? Really??
    Was Paul a Christian, at this time? Here he said even he (Paul) "am carnal." He did not say he used to be carnal, in the past.
    I believe these are Christian whom Paul is addressing, by the language, don't you?? And what is he about to say about them? Let's see!
    Uh, seems Paul thinks they are carnal for he says so. You did note that he calls them brethren, including himself with them, when he says "brethren". He says they are "God's building", something that cannot be said of the unsaved, and also calls them "God's field." And he equates carnal with babes in Christ, and contrasts it with spiritual. They were still sucking on that milk, spiritually, and could not handle the meat of the Word, yet. Hence carnal is equal to immature, and is contrasted with spiritually mature.

    With all respect, I think I prefer Paul's opinion (Ya' know, bein' as it is in the Bible and all...) over one that says "There is no such thing as a carnal Christian."

    Ed
     
    #59 EdSutton, Jul 11, 2007
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  20. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    Yes you can die like this. But you cannot do this being born again
     
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