Like I said you don't have to agree with Spruol but it accurate to me. It is what I would believe by reading those passages but he beat me to it and I couldn't do him any justice he said better than I can
Can A person Keep the law and live? Have salvation thru the law itself?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2013.
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symbolic language is used to illustrate truth- Tell God he is using a sad approach not me :) -
You have some explaining to do. -
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
It is plainly shown three times in this one verse alone that God is speaking of a man dying "in sin". First he says, "in his trespass", then he says "in his sin", and then "in them" shall he die.
God is speaking of dying "in sin", that is, condemned as a sinner. It is the exact language Jesus used in John 8:24;
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
You can deny all you want, Ezekiel 18 is speaking of a person dying in their sins.
Not all of the sins shown in Ezekiel 18 carried the death penalty'
neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
It there a death penalty for coming near a menstruous woman? NO.
but hath restored to the debtor his pledge,
Was there a death penalty for failing to pay a debt? NO.
He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase,
Was there a death penalty for charging interest? NO.
Was there a death penalty for not clothing the naked? NO.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Is God saying that if a serial killer turns from his sin he shall live? Absurd!
Some folks will go to any extreme to avoid truth. God is speaking of eternal death in these passages. -
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Jesus was made of the "seed of David according to the flesh". Jesus had the same flesh as David. If we inherit a sin nature, then Jesus would have inherited a sin nature through the seed of David.
This shows once and for all your error that you claim Jesus avoided a sin nature by being born of a virgin. Romans 1:3 clearly shows Jesus inherited the seed of David through his mother Mary. Even science knows we inherit from our maternal grandparents.
So, that bogus argument of yours is proven FALSE.
Not only did Jesus have the flesh of David, he had the nature of the seed of Abraham who was born after the fall and was a sinner.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham (the Jews). He was made like unto his brethren in ALL THINGS.
When you deny that Jesus was made exactly like us you deny that Jesus came in the flesh. This is warned against in 1 John 4:2-3
1 Jhn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Jesus wasn't oblivious to temptation, the scriptures say he was "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities. Jesus felt temptation just like you and I, but he never obeyed these temptations and sinned.
You teach false doctrine. -
When a righteous man turns and he commits sin. What sin? Sins of violence. Then he pays for those sins of violence according to the Law given by Moses: an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth; or by death, or whatever the penalty was.
The child did not pay for the father's crime.
It is a passage that is a clear and straightforward exposition of Israel's justice system. To read into it anything else but the justice system is to butcher the Word of God. -
Is this what you are implying about Jesus?
Otherwise I fail to see your point. The flesh is flesh. David's flesh was very sinful!! -
So, you believe that God commanded the Jews not to punish a child for his father's sin, and then God punished us for Adam's sin? Is that what you believe? That God is a hypocrite who breaks his own laws? Asinine.
It's all a big joke, none of you except the insane hyper-Calvinists really believe in Original Sin. Every one of you makes up some sort of excuse or reason why God does not send babies to hell. You give-it-away that in your heart you believe it completely unfair and unjust for a baby to go to hell.
You ridicule me because I say the scriptures do not teach a baby is a sinner, but you teach a man is saved without faith in Jesus. What a joke.
You do not really believe babies are sinners, else you would have no problem believing God sends babies to hell. -
I do not believe David was BORN a sinner, I believe God has made men upright, but all men go out and become sinners.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
The word "they" is plural and points back to the word "man" showing that God has made ALL MEN upright, not just Adam. But all men in time will go out and commit sin and become sinful. ALL scripture shows this.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
This is the scripture Paul quoted in Romans. It says man has BECOME filthy.
If you were born wealthy, would you tell people you had BECOME rich? NO.
But if you were poor and worked hard and prospered, would you tell people you had BECOME rich? YES.
Words have meaning. If we have become filthy, then we were not originally filthy. This is shown over and over again to the honest reader.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
You may be wearing filthy rags right now, but they did not start out that way. Originally they were good, clean clothes.
Notice Isaiah compares us to leaves that fade away. Does any leaf start out dead and brown? NO, all leaves start out tender, green, and alive, but over time they fade away and die.
It is right in front of you, but you cannot see because you have been blinded by the false doctrine of Augustine and the RCC. -
Now if that be true, the RCC believes it; most Baptists believe it (Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike), and most Protestant denominations believe it. That leaves you outside of orthodox Christianity not believing it. I wouldn't be so condescending it I were you. You are the one that believes in an unorthodox doctrine, not the rest of you. I am not a Calvinist.
[quote\Every one of you makes up some sort of excuse or reason why God does not send babies to hell. You give-it-away that in your heart you believe it completely unfair and unjust for a baby to go to hell. [/quote]
Was David a hyper-Calvinist too? He didn't believe his infant would go to hell. It seems that you are obsessed with this.
This is your logic. I have faith. I have faith that "the Judge of all the earth will do right," and I leave the matter in God's hands, and to his mercy and lovingkindness. You don't seem able to do that. -
I think you know that very well.
You have just as big a problem as me, NO, bigger, because Jesus actually spoke about persons who have no sin in Luke 15.
Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Whether you like it or not, Jesus told a parable about a shepherd who had 100 sheep. None were lost. One went out and became lost, he searched and recovered this one lost sheep, and then Jesus said there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than 99 just persons who need no repentance.
I guess you believe Jesus just makes up imaginary persons that could not possibly exist? Is that what you believe?
Then Jesus tells us of the prodigal son. Was he lost at first? NO, he was at home with his father and went out in sin. He was joined to a citizen of the far country (Satan). When he repented, Jesus twice said he was alive AGAIN.
Then Jesus himself tells us of the elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at any time. Did the father call the elder son a hypocrite? No, the father called the elder child "Son", said he was "ever with me", and that all that he had was his. He NEVER said the elder son was dead or lost like the prodigal.
You don't get it, I didn't make this scripture up, Jesus is the person who told us about the 99 sheep who never went astray and need no repentance, Jesus told us about the 9 silver pieces that were never lost, and Jesus told us about the elder son who never sinned against his father.
But you just go right ahead and believe Augustine and see where it gets you. -
Ezekiel 18:14 But lo, if he have begotten a son that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like:
15 --he hath not eaten upon the mountains, nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; he hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 and hath not oppressed any, nor withholden the pledge, neither hath exercised robbery; he hath given his bread to the hungry, and covered the naked with a garment;
17 he hath withdrawn his hand from the poor, hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, [and] walked in my statutes: he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall certainly live.
Ezekiel 18:18 As for his father, because he practised oppression, exercised robbery upon his brother, and did what was not good among his people, behold, he shall die in his iniquity.
19 And ye say, Why doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? But the son hath done judgment and justice, hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them; he shall certainly live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
What sins?
These are violent sins: robbery, oppression, adultery, refusal to be merciful to the poor, idolatry, bribery, etc.
Read again the passage. They are sins related to the law; related to the Ten Commandments. There is nothing here related to the Adamic nature or Original Sin. The Son shall not bear the iniquity, the sins (adultery, murder, idolatry, etc.) of the father. Is it that hard to keep 18:20 in the context of the rest of the passage?
Joseph was a carpenter and therefore Jesus was a carpenter.
Jona was a fisherman and therefore Simon was a fisherman (Mat.16:17; 4:19).
Jack was a sexual predator and therefore Joe is a sexual predator.
--That was the thinking of the day, and still is today to a good degree.
The Bible says that Joe shall not suffer for Jack's sins. He is accountable for his own sins whether good or bad. Whatever lifestyle he chooses, he will be accountable for. That is what the Bible is teaching here.
Your comments were very sarcastic.
http://ca.shine.yahoo.com/blogs/shine-on/toddlers-capable-lying-claims-canadian-study-183346226.html
Of course I have known this and have preaching this for years. It is amazing what science "discovers" that has been in the Bible all along. Psalms 58:3 is true according to the unsaved.
"Original sin would cause an infant to go to hell and therefore cannot be believed."
Because you do not understand, cannot understand, like the J.W., you refuse to believe. That is what the trinity has to do with it. "I can't understand; therefore I will not believe." That is not a good excuse Winman. There are many things we don't understand. How can a finite man understand an infinite God!
That is also why I said to you: "Do you believe David was a Calvinist? David had enough faith to believe his infant would be in heaven, so what is your problem. David also believed infants had a sin nature, not to mention that he himself was born in sin. Psalm 51:5
"Unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees you can in no wise enter into the kingdom of God."
Those "just" persons were the "righteous" by virtue of their "self-righteousness." IOW they were not saved; they said they didn't need repentance. They came wanting to be baptized, but John sent them away telling them to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. Don't just tell me "I have repented," but bring the evidence as well. He was speaking of the self-righteous Pharisee who thought he needed no repentance.
Context: Who was this for?
Luke 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
--This lesson was for the Pharisees and scribes who thought they didn't need repentance.
I meet so many people who tell me they are not sinners and don't need Christ. That is who Christ is talking about.
Your interpretation of these parables are way off. -
To get back to the topic of the OP:
"If righteousness came by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians 2:21
I think that one verse answers the OP's question quite well. -
Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
The Jews actually had a form of Original Sin here, and that is what God is speaking about. He says that all souls belong to him and the soul that sins shall die. No man shall die for the sins another man committed.
The reason I don't believe Original Sin are many. Ecc. 7:29 says all men are made upright, Eze. 18:20 says the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. Jesus said we must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. I could show you MUCH scripture that I believe clearly teaches babies are not sinners. Rom. 9:11 directly tells us that Esau and Jacob had done no evil in their mother's womb.
And if you go to Matthew 18 you will see who these 99 are, LITTLE CHILDREN.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Jesus had just picked up a small child and set him in the midst of the disciples, so it is certain this was a very young child, perhaps 3-5 years old at most. He told the disciples they must be converted and become as little children (meaning any child) to enter heaven, and that their angels do always behold his Father's face in heaven. Jesus is clearly showing little children are not sinners.
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You reject the Scriptures that teach Original Sin:
Psalms 51:5; 58:3; Jer.23:25; Rom.3:9-18; Eph.2:1-3; and many more.
But when it comes to a Scripture that doesn't teach Original Sin, you say it does, and are its biggest advocate. Now you believe in Original Sin. Why the turn about? Why are you preaching about Original Sin when previously you say you don't believe in it, and you said it is a heretical doctrine. You seem to be very confused. -
I will let John Gill himself tell you that this chapter was addressing a false belief the Jews had, a form of Original Sin, where they thought they were being punished for their parents sin. Of course you will not listen to Gill or anyone else. But for those who are able to learn...
I expect you to completely ignore this and carry on in your ignorance. -
You didn't answer my question.
Why in almost every post you deny Original Sin, and then in this thread, when it comes to this passage you defend it? Forget about the interpretation for a minute why are you defending Original Sin from this passage when you don't even believe in the doctrine? -
I have shown you from John Gill what was being spoken about in Ezekiel 18, the chapter starts with the proverb that the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. These Jews falsely believed they were being punished for their parents sin, not unlike the doctrine of Original Sin. In fact, in the JF & B commentary they point this out:
The fact is, the whole 18 chapter of Ezekiel deals with the false belief that God imputes the sin of the parents to their children. God clearly says that this is false, and that every person dies for their own sins.
This is why Original Sin is wrong. Now, it is true that all men experience physical death when man was barred from the tree of life, but men do not spiritually die because of Adam's sin.
It is actually a blessing that we physically die, if we lived forever there would be no incentive to turn from sin, man would continue to wax worse and worse. It it the threat of eternal death that is our greatest incentive to repent and turn to God and escape ruin.
Now, you just go on believing what you want, I am sure nothing will ever change your mind, you think you know everything. Too bad. -
No need to expound the passage again. I have read your explanations.
You want the passage to teach OS for some warped reason. This is truly odd.
I don't believe it has anything to do with OS; it is teaching about the Jewish justice system; the Ten Commandments. But if you want to be a Calvinist and convert to the Reformed be my guest.
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