No! you are taking your or someone elses understanding of Greek. I am not saying that knowing Greek does not help..but when it contradicts other scriptures we need to re examine our understanding!
Again, I explained this in another post! Prophecy is not preaching! Peter preached! Tongues were mangnifying/praising God...the unbelievers understood in their own language what the believers were saying (praising/manifying God).
The people were the tool that the Holy Spirit was manifesting through...what was that manifestation? Tongues/supernatural utterance given by the Holy Spirit/magnifying God.
Example:"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5) THey were declaring the wonderful works of God!
See above!
Charismatic Errors Listed
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Sep 24, 2012.
Page 9 of 14
-
You do not know how they were praying! It does not say! Eph. 6:18 says "Praying with all prayer in supplication IN THE SPIRIT, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication FOR ALL SAINTS."
Manifestation (phanerosis) means " a manifestation, a making viseble or observable." It is being detectable by the five senses.
We experience manifestations all the time...
Electric energy in a light bulb is manifested in the form of light and heat. We can not see the energy but we can feel and see the light and heat. ELECTRIC ENERGY BEING MANIFESTED.
A manifestation of chicken pox disease is a rash with small pimple-like sores. We cannot see the virus inside but we can see it once it is manfested-sores.
We cannot see the Holy Spirit..but He is manifested! 1 Cor. 14-10 shows how He can manifest to the physical world. It is not us doing any of the 9 listed! It is the Holy Spirit using us to manifest in the world as a witness that He was poured out to all flesh on the Day of Pentcost. He was given to the church... for the church...and will be here until we are raptured out of here!
If you say otherwise you are saying He took His Holy Spirit from us or that the Holy Spirit can not manifest himself anymore today. (Which I believe there might be some truth to the last statement..because of unbelief and the lukewarmness of His church). -
His instructions are for women to keep silence in the church.
But he does allow them to speak outside of the church.
His directions about tongues were for in the church; for they were not to be used outside of the church. The difference here is that women were useful outside of the church. The gifts of the Spirit were not. They were for the church, to be used in the assembly, for the assembly, for the edification of the assembly. Study chapter 12.
They were praying "in supplication". The word "supplication" simply means "request" as translated in the WEB. Requests must be understood. Everyone had to understand what the various requests were that they were praying for, else what good would it be.
Secondly it says that they were persevering. You don't persevere in meaningless gibberish. You persevere only if there is understanding; only if you know what you are praying. "in the Spirit" has not reference to tongues. I pray in the Spirit every day. But I would never pray in tongues. Please learn what the expression means. If they are going to pray for all saints, they need to know what their names are, needs are, etc., and be able to pray for them intelligently, and think about it. You can't do that when speaking in tongues.
Read John chapter 3. It speaks of the Holy Spirit there also. It also speaks of the New Birth. When one is born again the Holy Spirit will manifest itself, and usually does so but gradually. He does not use the gifts of the Holy Spirit to do so, but rather the fruit of the Holy Spirit. -
Fruit grows on branches, and Jesus said believers are the branches. The Fruit of the spirit grows in the life of the born-again, recreated believers becasue of the life of Christ resident and developed within believers-the branches.
Baby christians do not produce and grow fruit all at once. It takes time for a tree to mature and for the fruit to grow and develope.
But a baby CHristian can be filled with the Holy Ghost, and have power, and can evern have the gifts of the spirit operating in his life. The Corinthians were babes. They did not have a lot of fruit...but they did have the manifestaion of the Holy Spirit manifesting in their lives.
Fruit of the spirit is for holiness...manifestations of the Holy Spirit are for power. You can be holy without having power...and you can have power without being holy. The combination in a christians life is the best!:thumbs:
Simplified...
The 9 fruit of the Spirit, which are a result of the indwelling Presence.(developed nature)
The 9 gifts (manifestations) are a result of the infillling. (power) -
If it is the Holy Spirit you are referring to, the Holy Spirit never operates without understanding. Thus if you pray without understanding you are definitely outside the will of God.
You can't even point to any of those gifts in operation today.
I challenged you to lay out evidence. Show me anyone who is demonstrating today those gifts and you can't. Why do you say something that can't be done. That is just hypocrisy.
-
And your scriptures to back up that the filling was JUST to speak forth the Word in power?
Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit for all to have power...to manifest! How He manifest through us is up to Him not us!
Sorry, but when the Gentiles were brought into the promise of the Holy Spirit..something was manifested!
Sorry, but when Peter and John laid hands on the Samaria..something was manifested!
Sorry, but when Paul laid his hands of the certain ones at Ephesus..something was manifested!
In the Corinthian church...manifestations took place.
I am not confused!
Again..THe Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost, to remain with the church until it is complete and presented to the Lord Jesus at His coming. Just as Jesus finished the work He came to do in the flesh, so the Holy Spirit will finish the work He came to do in the church!
THe gifts and callings of God are without repentance! -
Then it says you are to submissively learn from your husband at home.
Praying in tongues or other languages is a gift of the Holy Spirit given to the local church, not to individuals for their own selfish use. It was given for the edification of the church not for the selfish edification of oneself. 1Cor.12 teaches this very clearly.
It is a gift given to the local church.
given as a sign to the Jews (14:21).
given as a sign to unbelievers (14:22).
given as a vehicle of revelation (13:8ff).
given as a sign of apostolic authentication (Heb.2:3,4)
The first century unbelieving Jews we don't have today.
The first century local churches we don't have today.
The Apostles we don't have today.
Temporary vehicles for God's revelation are not needed today.
Thus signs such as tongues are not needed today.
The gifts of the Spirit have ceased. They were not used for power. They each had different purposes as 1Cor.12 explains.
The filling of the Holy Spirit was to preach the Word with power or boldness.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
-
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
But I'll work with you. Since you reject the literal language of the Greek NT, I'll try in English. Do you understand English grammar? (This is a genuine question. Many Americans do not.) Note the phrase in our English Bible "speak with tongues." What does "with mean"? It is a prepositional phrase in which the word "with" means, "By the means or agency of" (Microsoft Bookshelf, American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language).
If your interpretation were correct, the word "tongues" would be a direct object, as in "He spoke tongues," similar to "He preached a sermon." The tongues were used for the purpose of prophesying. They prophesied "with," "by means of" tongues. If you reject this, then tell me what meaning of "with" is in view here. "In the company of"? "Next to; alongside of"? (ibid). Get an English dictionary and enlighten me. Show me you understand the English language.
-
Ok, John...:wavey: -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
A Charismatic error in the area of divine healing is the idea that healing is in the atonement and God wants everyone to be healed. This is just nonsense, Biblically speaking. The prime passage to disprove this is when Paul prayed three times for healing of his "thorn in the flesh" (2 Cor. 12:7-8), but God did not heal him, but instead said, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness" (V. 9). So Paul said, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."
Also, of course, many "faith healers" contract serious illnesses from which they cannot be healed. Healer Jack Coe died from complications from bulbar polio. A. A. Allen died of acute alcoholism. Kathryn Kuhlman died after heart surgery. The list could go on and on.
Again, many Charismatic healers blame the sick person for not having faith enough to be healed. This is a copout, since many times Christ healed people regardless of their faith or lack of it. This copout gives the "faith healer" an out in case the person is not healed.
Why stand against such "healers"? Because they are deceivers, giving false hope to people with disabilities and sick people, taking their offerings. Sometimes they even give false hope so that people stop taking their medicines and may even die. This is wicked. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Ernest Angley: human, fallible, tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit's filling, teaches you must receive the Holy Spirit to go up in the Rapture, "sickness comes from the devil," etc. etc., so many false teachings (from his website at: https://www.ernestangley.org/church).
There is a fair but thorough expose of Angley here: http://letusreason.org/Popteach50.htm (I can't vouch for the rest of the website, but it looks okay.) Among other things, in Part II we learn that Angley has a doctrine of "divine blood." Supposedly Jesus did not have human blood, but divine blood. Supposedly Adam and Eve had this "divine blood" and were like Jesus in that regard (Part III). -
We will all die, that is for sure!
Sickness comes by several ways...
Sin (John 5:14) Jesus made it clear in this verse that this man's sickness returning, even something worse that what he'd had, could come on him if he sinned.
Sowing and reaping (Rom. 6:21-23) An alcoholic that drinks all their llife and gets a lliver disease, they did that to themselves!
A direct attack from satan..we live in a fallen world!
Natural things..If we are not paying attention while walking down stairs, we could trip, fall, and break a leg, neck, or collarbone. It just happens!
On healing I still have more questions than answers..but I believe there is more to it than what we were taught!
As far as Pauls thorn..there is alot of debate about it..
Paul tells us exactly what it was: It was a "messenger of Satan" (2 Corinthians 12:7). Paul didn't use a Greek word for sickness or disease in this verse, but instead he specifically used the Greek word for "angel," and he specifically said that it was a demonic angel.
Paul pleaded with God three times to remove this "thorn," and then Paul boasted and delighted in it.
Paul did not ask God to heal him, but instead Paul asked God to take away (aphistemi, literally, "that it might depart from me") the "thorn." There's a big difference. This is the same Greek word which is used in Acts 12:10 when an angel "departed" from Peter, and in all of the 15 other occurrences of this Greek word in the New Testament it's never used in reference to sickness or healing (see Luke 2:37, 4:13, 8:13, 13:27, Acts 5:37, 38, 15:38, 19:9, 22:29, 1 Timothy 4:1, 6:5, 2 Timothy 2:19, and Hebrews 3:12). Paul wasn't asking for a sickness to be healed, but instead he was asking God to take away this demonic harassment.
What did this demon do to Paul? It "tormented" him, according to the NIV. The Amplified Version translates this Greek word by saying that it "buffeted" and "harassed" him. In addition to the verse that we're examining (2 Corinthians 12:7), this Greek word occurs 4 more times in the New Testament, where it means "to strike with the fists" (Matthew 26:67, Mark 14:65), "to be brutally treated" (1 Corinthians 4:11), and "to receive a beating" (1 Peter 2:20). This Greek word is never used in reference to sickness or disease. It's always used to describe someone brutally mistreating someone else.
Paul was not pleading for a healing. He was pleading to be delivered from persecutions and hardships. -
-
A BIG problem is that typically, charasmatics misunderstand the OT scriptures as regarding the concept of OT promises/blessings, and that healing wa sin the Cross!
many hold to God has promised us wealth and health, but that was ONLY specific to Isreal under provisions of thei rOld Covenant with God!
Also, they see healing provided for int he atonemntby peter and Isaiah BOTH tell us that His wounding/death was to pay for our sins specifically!
healing is provided for in the sense we shall ALL be glorified, but NOT a promise for it right here and now! -
-
First, who is the "we" that you speak of?
Second, you repeatedly say that "you" believe in the manifestation of healing, so that "we" is not all inclusive is it?
Third, even though "you" believe in it, you cannot demonstrate that it is in existence or operative. You have no proof. You can't point to a single faith healer on this earth who has the ability to heal (the gift of healing) as Peter did in Acts 5:16. So what possesses you to continue to assert that it exists when all the evidence points to the contrary? -
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Paul's use of the term "messenger" is metaphorical, in keeping with his metaphorical usage of the term "thorn." You're welcome to believe it was a demon, but if you do so you are failing in what you like best to do, comparing Scripture with Scripture. Paul writes in Gal. 4:13-15, "Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me." So it is clear from Gal. that Paul had a physical ailment which was not cured, probably having to do with his eyes, because of this passage and Gal. 6:11, "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand."
Any way you put it, Paul did not believe that all sicknesses can and will be healed, as the Charismatics do.
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Page 9 of 14