Prove the following is contrary to the word of God.
Conditional Immortality of Souls
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Nov 25, 2022.
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I don't have enough context to know what to "prove," but the conditional mortality of humankind is quite obvious in the scriptures if you are open to seeing it.
One of the first images in the scriptures is the "tree of life" found in the garden. The fruit of the tree of life literally sustains life (see Genesis 3:22). Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life (Genesis 3:24) and death reigns until now. The tree of life will return in God's restored world, and humankind will eat of it again (Genesis 22:2, 14), allowing us to be sustained forever.
Beyond the image of the tree of life, the New Testament is full of explicit statements that eternal life is given by Jesus as a consequence of salvation, not an inherent human quality. Here are just a few examples:
- "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms on account of My name, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life." (Matthew 19:29)
- “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
- "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)
- “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)
- "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40)
- "Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life." (John 6:47)
- "...and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28)
- "The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life." (John 12:25)
- "...just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life." (John 17:2)
- "For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
- "Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." (1 Timothy 1:16)
- "This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:25)
- "Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him." (1 John 3:15)
- "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." (1 John 5:11)
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So we now have 2 annihilationists on the BB posing as Baptists???
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If you disagree with the explicit Bible passages I quoted as examples, please show me how I have misinterpreted the plain biblical language. As always, the Bible must be our authority, not tradition or popular opinion.
And for the record, I have never hidden my beliefs, so I am not "posing" as anything other than who I am. -
Your Bible verses do not teach annihilationism. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I had been told that annihilationism was the mark of a cult, so I was quite averse to receiving the scriptural teaching. But after 20 years of seeing the consistent witness of scripture, I decided I had to be true to the plain teaching of scripture and endure the knee-jerk criticism of persons who won’t even discuss the issue.
I’ve only listed 14 New Testament verses (out of many examples) and pointed out the image of the “Tree of Life.” Please demonstrate that eternal life is inherent in all people AND is not restricted to those in Christ.
And if eternal life is not restricted to those in Christ, why does the New Testament, especially in John’s writings, emphasize precisely that teaching so often? -
Your position removes justice. It removes the call to repentance. It conjures up a myth that there is no consequence for sin since humans who rebelled against God without reconciliation simply cease and go to black. Your position encourages the wicked to increase their evil since there is no impunity to worry about.
So, dress up the pig all you want, but in the end it's still a pig.
If you want someone to agree with you, go to your local Kingdom Hall and note that the followers of Charles Taze Russell will gladly give you a round of applause. -
Eternal punishment of the damned:
*Matthew 25:41-46*
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
*2 Thessalonians 1:5-10*
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Sure. Their punishment is eternal. They are eternally dead. It is capital punishment.
Isaiah 66:22-24
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So will your descendants and your name endure.
And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
“Then they will go out and look
At the corpses of the people
Who have rebelled against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be extinguished;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.” -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In addition to that, I could have also cited all of Jesus’ teaching on Gehenna, but it seems you are unwilling or incapable of engaging with even the small sample of scripture I have cited. -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In human terms, capital PUNISHMENT is a final punishment. It does not last forever, but only until the person is dead. The “second death” (Revelation 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8) is the destruction of the wicked. There is no coming back from that.
You are quite arrogant to claim I am “posing as a Baptist” because of my understanding of scripture when it is clear you don’t understand the first thing about the issues or scripture surrounding conditional immortality.
Instead of trying to win an argument, spend some time with the scripture and see if what I said is the true and plain meaning. Just read the Gospel of John for a start and notice what Jesus said contrasting eternal life with death/perishing.
If you want to have a conversation about it later, I’d be happy to discuss it with you. -
27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he had stood before Jehovah:
28 and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the Plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the land went up as the smoke of a furnace. Gen 19
8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11:8
7 How much soever she glorified herself, and waxed wanton, so much give her of torment and mourning: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall in no wise see mourning.
8 Therefore in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judged her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived wantonly with her, shall weep and wail over her, when they look upon the smoke of her burning,
18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city? Rev 18
3 And a second time they say, Hallelujah. And her smoke goeth up for ever and ever. Rev 19 -
Alan Gross Well-Known Member
Nothing will eliminate the power of the lost unbeliever's sin,
against an Eternally Holy God,
including the Eternal Fire of an endless Hell
that they will suffer throughout all Duration.
As long as God Lives, He will exact suffering and punishment,
for sin against Him.
"Perish" means = from all Goodness of God
(that they enjoy while alive on Earth.)
The Scriptures also describe a resurrection in which none but the wicked are spoken of.
The description here referred to is found in Rev. 20:11-15.
And note that the statement that
"death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire"
can mean nothing less than that all the occupants of death and Hades
were at this time cast into the lake of fire;
The translation of Dan. 12:2 by Tregelles
...
"And many from among the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake,
these that awake, shall be unto everlasting life,
but those- the rest of the sleepers who do not awake at this time-
shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt."
SIMMONS- THE FINAL STATES OF THE RIGHTEOUS AND OF THE WICKED -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You haven't engaged the biblical argument at all. You are merely acting as if you are the final arbiter of doctrine.
Historically, there have always been three basic interpretations of the fate of the wicked within Christendom. These views have waxed a waned throughout the last 2,000 years. In the 19th century, conditional mortality was nearly the dominant viewpoint. The horror of World War I had an effect on theology, slowly moving the favored interpretation to eternal conscious torment.
The first is universalism. There are some verses that can be interpreted to support this view, but the overwhelming amount of biblical evidence forces me to interpret those verses in line with the rest of revealed scripture. Therefore, I believe universalism to be false.
The second is eternal conscious torment. There are a few verses that be interpreted to support this view, but the overwhelming amount of biblical evidence -- especially the teachings of Jesus -- forces me to interpret those verses in line with the rest of revealed scripture. Moreover, the concept of the inherent immortality of humanity comes from Platonic philosophy, not from Hebrew through. Therefore, I believe eternal conscious torment to be false.
The third is conditional mortality. The vast majority of scripture plainly affirms this view, and all the "problem" verses can be easily reconciled to it. Therefore, I believe conditional mortality to be true.
I'll help you do your homework.
What is conditional mortality?
Here's a website resource as well.
The 1925 Baptist Faith & Message does not take a stand between conditional mortality or eternal conscious torment (reflecting the views of many in the 19th century), although the 1963 and 2000 BF&M take the eternal torment position.
So there's an argument that exists, even though you are totally ignorant of it. Now, go be a Berean and study the issue for yourself. -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Alan Gross Well-Known Member
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