Sorry, I must respectfully disagree. (Not about you going to bed - please go get some rest.)
The one who is deep in the Word is also wise in the ways of the Lord. One cannot be wise in the ways of the Lord without also being deep in the Word. There are pseudo-intellectuals who are deep in something else, but I don't think that's what Tim was talking about in the OP, so I wish you had made that distinction clearer.
Good night.
Confessions of a non calvinist.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Timtoolman, Apr 7, 2006.
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Tell you what, meet me over in the Missions/Evangelism thread and put your money where your mouth is. Calvinists, stop talking about salvation and tell me what you have actually done about it!! I never see any BB Calvinists over in that delightful thread. </font>[/QUOTE]1. I haven't done anything about other peoples', or even my own salvation. This was all done by the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:1-5).
2. God has used me, however, by his own sovereign will, to preach the Biblical, non-seeker sensitive, non-relevant Gospel to the lost of this world (1 Corinthians 1:18-31). Some have been saved by God's amazing grace which reaches beyond their total depravity and changes their free will to want to choose Jesus.
3. Your problem is that you put the cart before the horse, as I believe most Arminians do. You believe missions is more important than doctrine, and therefore turn to a pragmatic win 'em at any cost plan of evangelism regardless of what Scripture teaches. As a Calvinist, I believe we should start with good doctrine which should lead is into Biblical evangelism. We are not to do this on our own power, but in the power of God. I don't see many free-willers who do that because they are too busy striving on their own and in their own power to win them at any cost, including compromising the message of the Bible because it is not seeker sensitive, relevant to the culture, or it doesn't make them feel good about the God they worship or the fate of mankind. If we start with sound doctrine, we will be led out of obedience to Christ, who is our master, to share the Gospel and then rely on the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin and not allow his Word to return empty. He will save all whom he wills to save.
Joseph Botwinick -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Tell you what, meet me over in the Missions/Evangelism thread and put your money where your mouth is. Calvinists, stop talking about salvation and tell me what you have actually done about it!! I never see any BB Calvinists over in that delightful thread. </font>[/QUOTE]1. I haven't done anything about other peoples', or even my own salvation. This was all done by the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:1-5).
2. God has used me, however, by his own sovereign will, to preach the Biblical, non-seeker sensitive, non-relevant Gospel to the lost of this world (1 Corinthians 1:18-31). Some have been saved by God's amazing grace which reaches beyond their total depravity and changes their free will to want to choose Jesus.
3. Your problem is that you put the cart before the horse, as I believe most Arminians do. You believe missions is more important than doctrine, and therefore turn to a pragmatic win 'em at any cost plan of evangelism regardless of what Scripture teaches. As a Calvinist, I believe we should start with good doctrine which should lead is into Biblical evangelism. We are not to do this on our own power, but in the power of God. I don't see many free-willers who do that because they are too busy striving on their own and in their own power to win them at any cost, including compromising the message of the Bible because it is not seeker sensitive, relevant to the culture, or it doesn't make them feel good about the God they worship or the fate of mankind. If we start with sound doctrine, we will be led out of obedience to Christ, who is our master, to share the Gospel and then rely on the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin and not allow his Word to return empty. He will save all whom he wills to save.
Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]You, sir, are making some huge assumptions about me, and I resent it.
(1) I am not an Arminian.
(2) I absolutely do not believe missions is more important than doctrine.
(3) I absolutely do not believe in a "pragmatic win 'em at any cost plan of evangelism."
(4) I absolutely do believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to do His work, and do not strive to do it in my own power.
(5) I absolutely do NOT try to make the Gospel relevant to the Japanese culture.
In the future, try not to attribute positions to those you disagree with before you discover whether or not you actually disagree with them. -
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I find calvinism to be without love. Not just the message but the people as a whole. They seem to worship intellectalism which is so major in their lives that they try to out intellectalise, (word, I don't know) each other to the extend they come up with such stupid statements that lack all common sense.
Apparently that statement didn’t bother you enough to rant against it.
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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John,
Did you read what you wrote earlier, or do you just not want to be held accountable for it?
Joseph Botwinick -
Joseph, I think you are painting an inaccurate picture of non-Calvinists. I am not a Calvinist (nor an Arminian but I am not going there) but I believe sound doctrine is essential. In fact, I've been studying apologetics and one of my points is that Christians need to use their mind in Bible study, doctrine, missions, etc. I know many, many other non-Calvinists like this as well.
You seem to have something against the seeker senstive people and are putting all non-Calvinists over there. It seems you are making false assumptions about a lot of non-Calvinists. -
Just my experience and observation in general. BTW, I notice that you had nothing to say about the ugly generalizations about Calvinists made in this thread. I wonder why.
Joseph Botwinick -
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And BTW I certainly don't speak for any other calvinist in this forum on that issue. Most of them post on a variety of subjects. I will occasionally post on a different subject myself.
If the Lord should grant be a pastorate or wider teaching ministry some day, then I will certainly broaden my focus to meet the need. But for now, the only thing I can think of is how the doctrine of synergism, and what's more, the ignorant pelagian words of people who have the gall to give themselves the title of "biblicist", smears the omnipotence of almighty God.
John, if I wrote a book similar to Hyles' "Great Soul-Winning Experiences", a book I happen to love, I guess that would make me o.k. in your eyes. As far as I'm concerned, this makes you about the same as Bob Gray, who exercises no shame in glorying in his own works, exalting himself to popedom, and roundly condemning anyone that does not join in his boasting behavior. Now you might not be as prone to it as he is, nevertheless, you hold the same root philosophy. You are thoroughly arminian though you deny it, excepting the fifth point of the remonstransts. My fear is that you, as many of today's arminians, are at least in part Pelagian in your views. How is that? You make the work of God, that is, salvation and more specifically regeneration, the work of man; even a natural process rather than supernatural.
I would like to find a forum where I can engage in debate with someone that (1)knows what their own church or confession teaches and (2) would like to engage in serious thought over these issues, not just sling pejoratives over their opponent during a theological drive-by shooting. John, I know that you know what you believe, but some here do not. And I think you try to avoid drive-by's, but you come pretty close to that sometimes.
J.D.
God' Puppet/Robot -
I read these threads occasionally anyway to give myself the chance to change my mind, but so far, if anything, the Calvinists have only convinced me to not be a Calvinist. :D
Well, tomorrow is Sunday and so I quit earlier on Saturday nights. Good night! -
I'm convinced that no one blinded by human sentimentality will ever accept God's absolute sovereignty (even his eternal power and Godhead). May God remove the scales from your eyes.
J.D.
God's Puppet/Robot -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Seems like this would be a perfect chance for Calvinists to prove that yes, they do evangelism and yes, God uses them at it! So I urge you, whatever, meet me there and share how God uses you! -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I find calvinism to be without love. You know why this is true? Because you expect it. This is what you are looking for. You find Calvinism to be without love because you expect it to be without love.
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You claim I am completely Arminian. Huh? Where in the world did you get that? This forum is anonymous, remember? I've never posted my beliefs either way on the Internet, and I don't feel I have to to please some anonymous Calvinist. My Lord Jesus Christ, my mission board, my supporters and the church I shepherd know what I am, and I am content with that.
For all you know I could be a 4 point Calvinist, though I freely admit I am not a 5-pointer, and I am certainly not an Arminian by any definition, though you have basically called me a liar on that. I don't remember ever interacting with you on this or any other forum, or ever seeing you in my Bible institute classes here in Japan. So where did you learn about my beliefs?
I have called myself a Biblicist on the BB, I admit that. And you say one who has "the gall to give themselves the title of 'biblicist,' smears the omnipotence of almighty God." Huh? What in the world does that mean? I don't have a clue what you are talking about here. I guess then that "Bible-believer," the favorite term of Machen (a Calvinist), would be out, too, huh?
Would you force me to be either a 5-point Arminian or a 5-point Calvinist? Forget it! I believe in the priesthood of the believer, and I will call myself whatever I want and I will believe what I think is right. -
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