Focus Mike.
A key purpose of defining worship is to distinguish it from the practice of praying to the dead "if possible".
"Note" the idea that prayer is ALSO a part of worship came up (and was attacked by our RC bretheren) before I posted this list of indicators for worship - that most definitely addressed the RC practice of praying to the dead, bargaining with them and having their own Catholic Digest confess that this really is the RC equivalent of "praying to the family gods".
Turning a blind eye to that elephant - does not make your Protestant bretheren "also" blind to the fact.
How were you expecting to avoid it - while you saw the discussion zero in the subject of prayer?
Can you really ward of open and objective discussion by saying "only mean old Bob would notice this problem in the RCC"?
In find that kind of silly.
In Christ,
Bob
Defining "worship"?
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by MikeS, Nov 24, 2003.
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Notice that not "only" did I provide the list you quoted I ALSO provided the RC source "showing" the connection between praying to the dead and praying to the family gods.
I "did" my homework - now -- have you done yours? Can you at "least" address the details?
In Christ,
Bob -
The Catholic Digest Answer Man!
Another official Church source is heard from!
A+ Bob!
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Basically the RC response to that Catholic Digest quote has been "dead silence" - not compelling - objective - researched dialoge...
It will be interesting to see the excuses they can think of for not coming up with substantive responses to their own Catholic sources.
In Christ,
Bob -
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeS:
The Catholic Digest Answer Man!
Another official Church source is heard from!
A+ Bob!
Click to expand...
DHK </font>Click to expand...
Does every publication with the word "Baptist" on it accurately represent Baptist belief?
Does every publication with the word "Christian" on it accurately represent Christian belief?
Your faith in Catholic solidarity is touching, but misplaced. There are some "Catholics" out there who probably believe fewer Catholic teachings than you do! It's a wierd world we live in! -
When a Catholic source "confesses too much" - the knee-jerk reaction by some Catholics is to demonize it - no matter how well respected.
The idea is to try to "bend it" so that they can "somehow blame non-Catholics" for what their own Catholic sources print. I "suppose" that is the best we can get from them on "substantive" response - and will have to take what we can get.
In Christ,
Bob -
Originally posted by BobRyan:
When a Catholic source "confesses too much" - the knee-jerk reaction by some Catholics is to demonize it - no matter how well respected.
The idea is to try to "bend it" so that they can "somehow blame non-Catholics" for what their own Catholic sources print. I "suppose" that is the best we can get from them on "substantive" response - and will have to take what we can get.
In Christ,
BobClick to expand...
The Catholic Church doesn't hide its teachings. The catechism is on sale in any bookstore. The Council and Papal documents are available in book form as well as online.
But I know this won't change your mind. You have too much at stake in the fictitious Catholic Church you tilt against night and day. -
Originally posted by MikeS:
There are plenty of "Catholic sources" (whatever that means) that I wouldn't trust with last weeks trash. Haven't you heard -- there's a large and influential segment in the Church that's in open rebellion against the Pope, the Magesterium and the teachings of the Church. That's the bad news. The good news is that they're slowly becoming marginalized by their own radicalism and contempt for "their" Church.Click to expand...
Now you want to take all that back please and throw the trash in the garbage where it belongs. It isn't (by your own words) the one true unified church. It is segmented, "marginalized by their own radicalism and contempt." Unified indeed!!
Every denomination, and cult that I know of (including the Catholics) puts out their own publications. I can tell by the publishers if the material I possess is SDA, J.W., Mormon, Catholic, etc. You don't have to have a great deal of intellect to discern the denomination's official publications, and/or those that their publishers have put out for advertising and education of the public. They all come from the same sources, and those sources for the most part are not secular.
Does every publication with the word "Baptist" on it accurately represent Baptist belief?Click to expand...
Instead, you might find one Baptist church pointing out error in another Baptist church. We are admonished to "take heed to the doctrine," to "contend for the faith," to heed to the principle that two cannot walk together unless they be agreed.
Does every publication with the word "Christian" on it accurately represent Christian belief?Click to expand...
Your faith in Catholic solidarity is touching, but misplaced. There are some "Catholics" out there who probably believe fewer Catholic teachings than you do! It's a wierd world we live in!Click to expand...
DHKClick to expand... -
Mike said --
Bob, let me explain a very simple concept. If it's not taught by the Church (in Council documents or Papal encyclicals) it's not Catholic. You find me a Council document or Papal encyclical that says saints are like family gods and then I'll agree with you. But, since you won't find such a document, you're just blowing smoke.Click to expand...
It is merely "reporting history".
Your view - that "history can be edited better than that" - is just silly.
The Catholic Church doesn't hide its teachings. The catechism is on sale in any bookstore. The Council and Papal documents are available in book form as well as online.Click to expand...
The Catholic church statements on doctrine - seldom venture on to those grounds because they don't want to appeal to the pagans as their "authority".
Catholic Digest is not doing that - they are simply observing the historic facts. As does Thomas Bokenkotter on this same subject.
These "catholic source" just become "new sources" for you to demonize as you circle your wagons in the "ever tightening circle".
In fact - you charge your Catholic Digest and your Catholic historians with "writing fiction" when what they tell the world about the history of the church - does not "please" your desire to see "revisionist history".
As we see in your final note --
But I know this won't change your mind. You have too much at stake in the fictitious Catholic Church you tilt against night and day.Click to expand...
In Christ,
Bob -
With Mary being called "Co-Mediatrix" and "Co-Redemptrix," does the RCC believe in the Trinity or the "Quadity?" :rolleyes:
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In John 6 we find that no man can come to the Father except through Christ.
But of course - that's just God's Word -- what about the Quad idea and the specifics on who our all powerful redeemer is....
CoRedemptrix -
"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense
"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi
"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia
"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25
"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven. He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950Click to expand...
In Christ,
Bob -
That leaves the question of just how powerful the Queen of heaven - Mother of God really is...Is she reall omnipotent? All powerful? Is this our form of "praise" in worship when we pray at her altars? (mentioned in the previous post)
"Is the Blessed Virgin powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants? Yes. The Blessed Virgin is powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants, that is, those who from the bottom of their hearts without ceasing ask her to help them to rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel, and to die in the love of God."
- Short Catechism Of Mary, Cardinal Charles Journet, pg 56
In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:
"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son
(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).
All Powerful Mary –
"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die
"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary
Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)
"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)
"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to [bvenerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus
Click to expand...
In Christ,
Bob
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