Why am I limited to one sentence? You anti-disp. always want some kind of simple answer. Well, I haven't seen simple explanations for amil or preterist views. And I don't ask for it.
I've already had bad experiences on disp. threads. So this is what I'm doing now - when I see a valid view of dispensationalism brought up for discussion, then I might consider replying.
What you said is not the way I've learned it. Why don't you post the valid view of dispensationalism the way most disp. churches hold it? Then ask questions.
Dispensationalism
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by jilphn1022, Jan 2, 2009.
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From Rom 11 (it's good to read Rom 9, 10, and 11)
What (K)Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (L)hardened;
8just as it is written,
"(M)GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
....20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH)kindness, (AI)if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ)will be cut off. 23And they also, (AK)if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. -
billwald's question is a good one, and now has aroused my curiosity. Whether you're a dispy or a historical pre-mil, how did you come to embrace your view?
More specifically, did you read the scriptures and arrive at that view? Or did you hear (or read) it first from a teacher or preacher?
My first exposure to dispensationalism was from a series of teachings by my pastor.. Up to that point, all I had ever heard preached was that Jesus would return some day.
Would I ever have come to dispensationalism from just reading the scriptures? I doubt it. Did any of you adopt the view before you ever read Schofield, Pentecost, Ryrie or heard a teaching or preaching on the subject? -
FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I'm on the other side of the fence, if you will. I grew up dispensational pre-mil, studied the charts in SS, dad preached every Sunday from his Scofield reference, etc. I moved to a non-dispy view as an adult -- primarily due to preaching/teaching from others.
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The fact is none of us come to our conclusions based upon total objectivity because none of us are capable of total objectivity. That is why we should all hold our position, whatever it is, with humility and with an openness to new information.
I agree that Bill Wald's question is legitimate. We should examine why we believe what we believe. But, having examined it, if we arrive at the same conclusion with a clear conscience, the way in which we arrived at it does not necessarily invalidate the conclusion. -
In this thread I define terms to explain a Scriptural, Dispensational pre-tribulation rapture2, pre-tribulation Second Coming of Jesus ,Futuristic Eschatology Doctrine (Theory).
http://www.baptistboard.com/search.php?searchid=532513 -
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John Macarthur stated this when asked about what Dispensationalism is:
Both Pre-mill and Dispinsationalism hold to a distinction between the Church and Israel and both also look toward an established physical Kingdom of Christ on Earth.
Amil - do not hold to either view. -
One can be pre-mil and not specifically dispensational (holding to everything dispys hold in the mainstream view). However one can not be dispensational without holding to a pre-mil view point. -
Just for the sake of a non-dispy view here is an portion from Richard J. Mouw, a non-dispensational Reformed theologian who is currently President at Fuller Theological Seminary.
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FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Are either the dispy/pre-mill group or the amill group Related to Calvinist or not? It seems to me that the local tribe of Calvin nuts are lined up on the amill. Personally I'm pre-OSAS (once saved, always saved) and never did figure out how Calvin added anything to Christian Doctrine. I'm a pre-trib pre-mill futurist. -
FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Soteriology --- Arminian/Calvinism
Scriptural View --- Dispensational/Covenant
Eschatology --- Premil/Amil/Postmil/Preterist/Other
While the POV for many people on the above three issues may seem to fall in the same line - eg, Arminian/Dispensational/Premil or Calvinistic/Covenant/Amil - that is not always the case. -
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FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Marcia -- Actually, I think most dispensational, premils are Arminian in their soteriology - perhaps with the exception of the OSAS issue. Again though, people are all over the board on all three (even in the same denomination) so it really hard to pigeon hole one group or another.
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My first introduction to dispensationalism was when discussing with someone about what he called the gap theory. Then I read Chafer's systematic theology. Then I bought a Scofield Bible and realized it had changed since the one which preceded it.
Aside from the theological aspect of dispensationalism. If one takes a look at just the last century, he will realize that dispensationalism has changed a few times and that there are differences among dispensationalists. I simply cannot base my faith on a systematic theology that has changed so many times. Some may say that it is being perfected. Isn't that kind of like what Mormons say about revelation. Yet in that same time scripture has not changed and the historical context has not changed. -
It is no different that ANY form or view regarding eschatology (or future events) regardless of which 'ism' you want to hold to.
The core or foundational view points of Dispensationalism hasn't changed so you comment, though personal, is far from accurate in any real sense. -
I have come across so many brands of covenantal theologies that I would never be able to trust any one of them. Every few decades one theologian changes his brand of covenantalism to another. It doesn't matter what theologian you read they all have their different views. Some say there are only two covenants: the old and the new. Some say there are up to fourteen. How do we know who to believe. They are a very confusing lot of people.
As for me and my house we will stick to the dispensations that are set forth in the Word of God. :)
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