Amen! Christ Jesus from heaven gave Paul His gospel for Paul to tell you all about getting into the Body of Christ. Jesus gave His earthly Apostles their own kingdom, of which I am not in, so I must come to Christ Jesus by the gospel He gave to Paul. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12.
Do you believe in Easter?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by I Am Blessed 24, Mar 27, 2005.
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Originally posted by av1611jim:
Brother Ituttut;
I have met with and fellowshipped with many a man such as yourself. What I find most common with folks of your thoelogical stripe is that they remove a full 1/3 of our New Testament and make it of none effect. I won't do such a thing.
Fellow Christian Jim. I am not into theory. I am a student of His Word, which is truth. I read all of His Word, but it is not all written to me for my salvation. The whole Word reveals what God wishes to reveal to us.
Jesus spoke to me. Peter spoke to me. Paul spoke to me. John spoke to me. James spoke to me. Luke spoke to me. Matthew spoke to me. Mark spoke to me. ALL Scripture is profitable for doctrine, ...etc.
Fully agree with your all is for us. But these while in the Old Testament with Moses, David, etc. is not written TO us. Christ Jesus tells me He chose Paul to speak to us today. That is to whom I listen. Christ does not tell me I am saved as are His kingdom of the earth people. I believe Christ Jesus from heaven just as I believe what He said on earth, but He said He was not talking to me while He was on this earth. Can you find differently? Am I to become circumcised, baptized, sacrifice, keep feasts, and days and all the rest. I’ll appreciate if you will point to me the scriptures covering me of inheriting the eaarth. He tells us we will be with Him in heaven, in His kingdom.
You may not believe so. That is fine. But I, and my house, will not whip out our penknife and cut 1/3 of the New Testament out. MY New Testament tells me that as a child of God I am accountable for how I behave myself. It is Paul who tells us of the terrors awaiting us at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Explain away your accountability all you would like. I will not be so bold. I tend to approach my God with fear and trembling, with thanksgiving knowing who He is.
In HIS service;
JimClick to expand... -
Ga 1:23
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
Ituttut: It is funny you would stop where you did brother. For if you had kept reading you would discover that Paul preached the SAME faith as Peter.
Simple exegesis here my friend. If Paul was destroying a faith before he was saved, then gets saved and is NOW preaching that same faith then any sane person would conclude they are one and the same. Yet you claim that Paul's preaching a different faith and message. One that Jesus gave him that is catagorically different. Yet these are Paul's words here afirming that he preached the same message that he destroyed.
I know where you get your ideas and they are as far removed from sound teaching as one could get and still be christian. I count you as a brother, saved by the same Blood I am, but I fear you are doing a great disservice by claiming that Paul and Peter preached different messages.
Remember? One Lord. One Faith. One Body. One Spirit. etc...
In HIS service;
Jim -
Originally posted by av1611jim:
Ga 1:23
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
Ituttut: It is funny you would stop where you did brother. For if you had kept reading you would discover that Paul preached the SAME faith as Peter.
Simple exegesis here my friend. If Paul was destroying a faith before he was saved, then gets saved and is NOW preaching that same faith then any sane person would conclude they are one and the same. Yet you claim that Paul's preaching a different faith and message. One that Jesus gave him that is catagorically different. Yet these are Paul's words here afirming that he preached the same message that he destroyed.
But “simple wrong exegesis” on your part my friend. Try to focus on what scripture is saying. This scripture refers only to the Jewish “kingdom church”, and not the Christian church.
Saul before Damascus Road was a holy terror. Paul is the reason the “kingdom church” group had to scatter from Jerusalem, all but just a few with the 12 Apostles. This is the Pentecostal church that He was trying to destroy. It was not the Christian church, as the headquarters of the Christian church was not even known at that time, and no Gentile had been preached to as we know from Acts 10.
Christ had an inheritance coming, and we Gentiles had to be included. Until Damascus Road we were not included. So then Christianity was born by the Word and Saul/Paul was chosen to be the One Apostle to the Gentile, and to the Jew.
I know where you get your ideas and they are as far removed from sound teaching as one could get and still be christian. I count you as a brother, saved by the same Blood I am, but I fear you are doing a great disservice by claiming that Paul and Peter preached different messages.
I know where you get your ideas from and it is has ties with the “Mother church”. I have never thought you were not Christian, as you being a Baptist believe you are saved by believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for you salvation. That is me also. But sound teaching can be proved. Do you believe Peter when he says you are to “repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins”? Or do you believe Paul who preaches salvation today is accomplished by “believing on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”? They cannot today both be right. The reason Paul is the correct way is because all today are Gentile heathen, just as in the beginning. James and Peter preached only to the circumcised, and they had to “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”, and if not then Jesus must have been wrong in telling His people how they could be saved
Remember? One Lord. One Faith. One Body. One Spirit. etc...
In HIS service;
JimClick to expand... -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Quoting robycop3,
"Do "I" believe in JESUS' DEATH & RESURRECTION?
Absolutely. 100%. No doubt.
Therefore I observe this day as RESURRECTION DAY, although I know Jesus was resurrected some time before Sunday had begun. I know the name "Easter" for this day has a pagan origin.
So, why do I observe this day? So as not to make others stumble; my non-observation might make someone think I take Jesus' actions lightly."
I don't understand a thing you're saying!
If Jesus had been resurrected "some time before Sunday had begun", and you "observe this day", then you should observe 'Saturday', the Sabbath Day, "before Sunday"?
See http://www.biblestudents.co.za -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Quoting,
"He gave up on the human race and made for Himself a Nation of His own. He is very particular of who those people are. They are from the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
That is your version.
Paul, however, thought differently. He, said, God gave the Promises and Blessing to THE SEED - "ONE" - of Abraham's: "who is Christ"! So that all - and only those - of faith, Jew or Gentile regardless, shall receive the righteousness of God (Jesus Christ) through FAITH! -
Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Quoting,
ituttut: "He gave up on the human race and made for Himself a Nation of His own. He is very particular of who those people are. They are from the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
GerhardE: That is your version.
Paul, however, thought differently. He, said, God gave the Promises and Blessing to THE SEED - "ONE" - of Abraham's: "who is Christ"! So that all - and only those - of faith, Jew or Gentile regardless, shall receive the righteousness of God (Jesus Christ) through FAITH!Click to expand...
I see and hear arguments all the time trying to show all is the same as from the beginning. It just “ain’t so”. Christ tells us differently through Paul, but hardly anybody will listen to Him as He speaks from heaven. Romans 3:30, ”Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.”
Today we have gospel we are to believe, or disbelieve. A Gentile can never be a Jew, but the Jew was Gentile, then not, then sent back to their idolater ways again, becoming today as we Gentiles.
Oh so how much more we can love Him, that first loved us, if we Gentile’s could only see that we were not even included when He first came down to man. We could only come by hanging onto the Jew and serving THEM, never being able to enter into the Temple to be with Christ Jesus forever.
This is the reason for Paul, and the different gospel. It had to be for Jesus to have His inheritance. Colossians 1:12-15, ”Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:” -
Let us not forget that Jews are literal, and part of Israel...and that God has made promises to LITERAL Israel and LITERAL Judah, including to make them one nation again, restoring them to prosperity...NOT because they DESERVE it, but to show them, and all the world, that HIS WORD STANDS, and that His power is limitless.
Jesus sent His disciples into ALL THE WORLD to spread the Gospel to Israeli and Gentile alike. And He was sure to include the conversions of several Gentiles within His word.
Sorry, Ittut, but the Jew was never a Gentile. He may have done as a pagan Gentile did, but he remained a Jew. Just because a zebra resembles a horse and acts like a horse doesn't make it a horse.
God told Jacob that the scepter(rulership) would remain with Judah. Now while the original Judah wasn't a ruler, once Israel demanded a king, the ruler has always been from the Jews. Saul, the first king, was from Benjamin, which became part of the Jews after Solomon's time, while David, of course, was descended directly from Judah.
God promised David an unending dynasty, and strongly reiterated that promise to Jeremiah, stating that if anyone could change God's setting the order of the cosmos, then could he break His covenant with David that he would always have rulers over some of Israel. This, of course, will culminate in JESUS' physical return to take over the throne of David forever.
Without getting into a "British Israelite" debate, can anyone tell us where on earth David's throne(rulership, not a physical throne) now is? According to Scripture, it MUST be here. Jesus flatly rejected being King during His first coming, so He didn't take that throne to heaven with Himself. God said that a descendant of David would rule at least some Israelis DURING EVERY GENERATION FROM SOLOMON ONWARD. Any thoughts? -
Originally posted by robycop3:
Let us not forget that Jews are literal, and part of Israel...and that God has made promises to LITERAL Israel and LITERAL Judah, including to make them one nation again, restoring them to prosperity...NOT because they DESERVE it, but to show them, and all the world, that HIS WORD STANDS, and that His power is limitless.
Yes, I agree the Jew is literal as Paul tells us in Romans 9:34, ”For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises”. But God has cut them off and today is making them jealous. But they today can come just as we Gentiles. I don’t make this stuff up robycop3. The Old Testament tells you this, and the time is coming when He will make a New covenant with Literal decedents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is not me, or any other not one of the 12 tribes.
Jesus told Israel in a parable they would have one year after Pentecost to accept the Holy Ghost. If they didn’t, they would be cut-off as a nation, and they were. That is the reason for two gospel’s being preached in the time of the Apostles. And there are today still two gospels being preached. One is of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”, which is the gospel of the uncircumcised. The other is by Grace we are saved Through Faith receiving remission of our sins.
Jesus sent His disciples into ALL THE WORLD to spread the Gospel to Israeli and Gentile alike. And He was sure to include the conversions of several Gentiles within His word.
Yes He did and they, His own people were to take the gospel to all the world. Did that happen? If so, please show scripture. Scripture shows the Gentile will hear the Word through the gospel of Paul, and they will carry the message of salvation to the world. The gospel today is the preaching of the “Cross”, of believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved by the Grace of God being circumcised and baptized without hands, coming through the blood of Jesus Christ, and raised to now be with Him in Heaven.
All this is New according to Christ Jesus from heaven. Can you prove Him wrong? Is this what he promised His Nation? He promised them the earth. He promises us heaven, because that is where He is today. We are today in His Body in spirit and soul, and at the rapture those in Him will be resurrected to be like Him.
No gentile was preached to until Cornelius, and that was not possible until Christ spoke to Paul on Damascus Road. Until then the Gentile was left out, and was not asked to dine at the table of God’s own, the nation Israel, the Temple people.
Sorry, Ittut, but the Jew was never a Gentile. He may have done as a pagan Gentile did, but he remained a Jew. Just because a zebra resembles a horse and acts like a horse doesn't make it a horse.
Didn’t Jesus say the Gentile’s are dogs? Do dogs return to their own vomit? Scripture says both of these are true. Didn’t Israel return to their own vomit, worshiping Idols, and all that goes with it? So God placed them back from where they came. He has future plans for His Bride however, for she broke their engagement.
Where did Abram come from. Scripture says he was a gentile dog from an idol worshiping family, as was the whole world. We see that God created His own race of people that were named Hebrew. He made that line from Abraham on to be His people, the Hebrew race, taken from Gentile stock, and they became the nation of Israel, and they have/had a Jewish religion. This is all in the Bible.
God told Jacob that the scepter(rulership) would remain with Judah. Now while the original Judah wasn't a ruler, once Israel demanded a king, the ruler has always been from the Jews. Saul, the first king, was from Benjamin, which became part of the Jews after Solomon's time, while David, of course, was descended directly from Judah.
God promised David an unending dynasty, and strongly reiterated that promise to Jeremiah, stating that if anyone could change God's setting the order of the cosmos, then could he break His covenant with David that he would always have rulers over some of Israel. This, of course, will culminate in JESUS' physical return to take over the throne of David forever.
Without getting into a "British Israelite" debate, can anyone tell us where on earth David's throne(rulership, not a physical throne) now is? According to Scripture, it MUST be here. Jesus flatly rejected being King during His first coming, so He didn't take that throne to heaven with Himself. God said that a descendant of David would rule at least some Israelis DURING EVERY GENERATION FROM SOLOMON ONWARD. Any thoughts?Click to expand...
Robycop3, the nation in their generations is “kaput”. Christ Jesus speaks to all of us today. My Bible says in more than one scripture Israel is now cut-off. The generations stopped in that generation. We are living in the secret age of God. This secret age of God that has dropped down His Grace from heaven with be taken up again, and like the Red Sea, the troubled waters will come back together. And then that man of sin will become known.
Where did you come up with the idea Quote “Jesus flatly rejected being King during His first coming”Unquote? What scriptures are you basing this assumption on? John said ”He came unto his own, and his own received him not”. I’ll take John’s word here if you don’t mind. -
Ituttut: Robycop3, the nation in their generations is “kaput”. Christ Jesus speaks to all of us today. My Bible says in more than one scripture Israel is now cut-off.
Jeremiah 3:18- "In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers."
Jeremiah 23:6- "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14- "Behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, "that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 33:23- Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24"Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, "The two families which the LORD has chosen, He has also cast them off|'? Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them.
25"Thus says the LORD: "If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants(plural) to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them."'(All above scriptures from the NKJV)
The generations stopped in that generation.
No, they DIDN'T! Where do you think today's Jews came from...Saturn? And GOD KNOWS who the descendants of the 10 tribes are, whether WE do or not.
We are living in the secret age of God.
NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Show us FROM SCRIPTURE where you got such a goofy idea! It's in direct conflict with
Amos 3:7-"Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."
This secret age of God that has dropped down His Grace from heaven with be taken up again, and like the Red Sea, the troubled waters will come back together. And then that man of sin will become known.
There's NO secret age; JESUS was quite open with His ministry.
Amos 3:7-"Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."
Where did you come up with the idea Quote “Jesus flatly rejected being King during His first coming”Unquote? What scriptures are you basing this assumption on? John said ”He came unto his own, and his own received him not”. I’ll take John’s word here ifyou don’t mind.
And I'll take Amos'word over yours any day! And also, Paul's! He wrote:
Romans 16:25- "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began"
When Jesus came, the secret of who the Messiah is was revealed. There's NOTHING about any "secret age" nonsense.
Now, as to JESUS' rejecting kingship at the time: John 6:15- "Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone."(That was after He had just fed some 5K people from one little picnic basket!)
As for David's throne, and the existence of Israelites...Scripture is quite clear they both exist, the Israeli people have existed since Jacob's sons were born, and David's throne since the last 33 years of his life. How important was GOD'S promise to David? He STRONGLY reiterated it to Jeremiah, also promising there'd always be Levites(now part of the Jews...every one with the surname COHEN, Hebrew for 'priest')
Did GOD say there'd always be a descendant of David ruling over ALL ISRAEL? Newp! OTOH, God made sure to place the story of His dividing Israel into Israel & Judah after Solomon's death, with each continuing as a separate kingdom, with the house of David ruling the Jews only.( Remember, Jew is a nick for JUDEAN, and includes the Benjaminites & most of the Levites as well as the tribe of Judah. Paul was a Jew of Benjamin.)
Believe David's throne ended with Zedekiah? NOT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE! Let's see what God said to Ezekiel as recorded in the KJV:
Ezekiel 21:25- "And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,26Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
Quite plainly, God is referring to Zedekiah. And NOWHERE does He say the throne was ended; He says it WON'T BE THE SAME.
27 "I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him."
Let's examine this passage closely. Though I'm certainly no Hebrew expert, I spoke with a local rabbi who knows Hebrew quite well, and here's what he had to say...the three 'overturns' are the Hebrew word 'avvah', which means, to ruin or distort, & it can also mean 'overturn' in the sense of despoiling. There are THREE such overturns in this Scripture, which PLAINLY shows the throne did NOT end with Zedekiah, just mentioned in Scripture! This is the ONLY verse in which 'avvah' appears in the whole Bible.
As for "and it shall be no more", the Hebrew is-
suwm...put, set, place
bow...come, enter, arrive
mishpat...right, privilege
Clearly, the Hebrew means it shall be no more OVERTURNED(not DESTROYED) until He comes who has the right to it, and that, of course, is JESUS. We see Jesus did NOT take over an earthly throne while here as a man. As for His ascent to heaven...in several parables, He portrays Himself as a nobleman who made a journey to a distant place TO RECEIVE HIS KINGDOM. He begins to rule AFTER HIS RETURN! Although He's always been a King, He hasn't yet physically received His kingdom.
BTW, this is one verse where the KJV is the most-correct of the various English translations. There are many instances in the KJV where the predicate of a sentence is left uncompleted as compared to today's English. Thus, the word 'overturned' wasn't placed at the end of V. 27, but by the Hebrew, that's what it means. Otherwise, it would contradict the several previous verses in which GOD promises David an unending, uninterrupted dynasty. Anyone believe GOD didn't know all this beforehand?
Things to consider from Scripture:
"exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high."
Zedekiah and all Judah was soon abased. Now, who was low? The ten tribes of Israel! Somewhere, there were some Israelis exalted, or Scripture is wrong.
"this shall not be the same." What was God talking about? Why, the diadem & crown, of course, the symbols of royalty. How could they not be the same? The ruler could be known by another title such as "chief" or "head man", or any number of other names, while still being the de-facto ruler.
David had many sons, but the throne was established by GOD through SOLOMON. Solomon had many sons himself, and thus many descendants, and God is not specific about which one should be the ruler. Some, he DQ'd their offspring, such as Jeconiah; others, He removed, such as Zedekiah.
While CERTAINLY NOT a racist "British Israelite", the throne of England seems a possible candidate for the throne which jesus will take over. It's been overturned twice, from Ireland, to Scotland, to England(by King James, king of Scotland).
HOW SURE IS GOD'S PROMISE TO DAVID?
"I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I
anointed him......... My mercy will I keep for him for ever
more, and my COVENANT shall STAND FAST with him. His SEED
also will I make to endure forever, and HIS THRONE AS THE
DAYS OF HEAVEN. If his children forsake my law, and walk not
in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my
commandments, then will I visit their transgression with the
rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my
lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer
my faithfulness to fail. My COVENANT WILL I NOT BREAK, nor
alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I
SWORN by my HOLINESS that I will not lie unto David. HIS
SEED SHALL ENDURE FOREVER AND HIS THRONE AS THE SUN BEFORE
ME. IT SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOR EVER AS THE MOON, AND AS A
FAITHFUL WITNESS IN HEAVEN." (PS.89 :20-37).
IT'S RIGHT THERE IN YOUR OWN BIBLE, whether you use an older version or a newer one. DAVID'S DYNASTY IS NOT TO BE INTERRUPTED FOR SO MUCH AS ONE GENERATION!!!!!!!!! It may be called something else, but it's still the SAME DYNASTY or Scripture is wrong. And, no, I'm NOT lending any private interpretation to Scripture; I'm pointing out what's LITERALLY WRITTEN in Scripture, letting it interpret itself!
Sorry, Ituttut, your "secret age" stuff is malarkey, with NO SCRIPTURAL BACKING, while the facts of Israel, Judah, and David's throne are plainly proclaimed in SCRIPTURE. I have answered with SCRIPTURE, not guesswork or opinion.
I'm open to any other existing rulership being of David's dynasty, if one can present proof. Right now, to me, the British throne seems the best candidate, due to its two known overturns and its world influence. ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, IT'S GOTTA BE HERE SOMEWHERE! -
Originally posted by robycop3:
Ituttut: Robycop3, the nation in their generations is “kaput”. Christ Jesus speaks to all of us today. My Bible says in more than one scripture Israel is now cut-off.
Jeremiah 3:18- "In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers."
Jeremiah 23:6- "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14- "Behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, "that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah:
Those days are ahead.
Jeremiah 33:23- Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24"Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, "The two families which the LORD has chosen, He has also cast them off|'? Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them.
Looks as if they got their wish, for today the “nation” is not before Him.
25"Thus says the LORD: "If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants(plural) to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them."'(All above scriptures from the NKJV)
But God has not forgotten them. When Christ’s kingdom is full of those that are His, God will again deal with His people, and it is not going to be pretty, but they, as a nation will come to Him in that day.
I don’t disbelieve any of the above, but God is not today dealing with the house of Israel. I don’t understand why you don’t believe Christ from heaven. Christ spoke to Paul on more than one occasion. He had Paul visit heaven to help Paul understand. Paul saw things he can’t tell us, and even if he could have, there are not too many that would believe him, as so many already just ignore him, until they find something they like.
Romans 11:13-15, “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14. If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?”
God still has His covenant with His people, and has not forgotten them, but they have been cut-off just as Jesus warned they could be.
ituttut: The generations stopped in that generation.
No, they DIDN'T! Where do you think today's Jews came from...Saturn? And GOD KNOWS who the descendants of the 10 tribes are, whether WE do or not.
The generations of the “house of Israel” were cut-off. The Jews know who they are, and we do, but God see us all the same today, and He only sees them in Christ Jesus today, just as He sees us. God is not interested in any that are not interested in His Son today. ” Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.” Acts 28:26-29.
God is no longer dealing with the whole nation of Israel. God always has a “remnant” of His people represented. These “remnant of Israel today” can, and are saved just as we Gentiles today. You seem to understand we are to be saved as where the Jew, wouldn’t you say. That is the reason for the two gospels’ in the time of the Apostles. Some came as the Jew with their works of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”, and some came as Christians by His Grace without the works, or circumcision. Romans 11:5, ” Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Isn’t this the way you were saved? That today is the way the Jew is saved, just like we Gentiles.
We are living in the secret age of God.
NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Show us FROM SCRIPTURE where you got such a goofy idea! It's in direct conflict with
Amos 3:7-"Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."
We need to remember in what dispensation Amos lived. Christ gave Paul His dispensational gospel for today. Have you ever read through any Epistles of Paul? He tells you he received this dispensation gospel from Christ in heaven.
I don’t understand why you cannot yet bring yourself to believe Christ in heaven. ”Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began”.
All Amos is saying is in prophecy, God reveals what is to be known in prophecy. We today are not in prophecy. We are in the secret time not in prophecy. If we are in prophecy, then Jesus did not come. Matthew 11:13, ”For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
If we understand correctly, I believe we can say prophecy stopped. If so, what came next. John the Baptist with the preaching of the kingdom of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins? Can we find this in prophecy? This is the message to the house of Israel, for John the Baptist never preached such a thing to a Gentile, and neither did the Apostles, or Jesus. The “Great Commission” says preach to all the world, but the Apostles never got out of Israel with message before the “house of Israel” was cut-off. Only a “remnant” believed, just some few thousand of the millions of Jew’s believed God. So God had this “secret” that also was not in prophecy, and it wasn’t too many years after Damascus Road that Christianity was born.
ituttut: This secret age of God that has dropped down His Grace from heaven with be taken up again, and like the Red Sea, the troubled waters will come back together. And then that man of sin will become known.
There's NO secret age; JESUS was quite open with His ministry.
Amos 3:7-"Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."
As long as God was dealing with the whole nation of Israel, He revealed to them what was in prophecy. Later He revealed to them other secrets. But the “scriptures and the prophets” could bring us so far. It is now made manifest to all the obedience of faith, of Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus and we will be Saved. Romans 16:26, “But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”
ituttut: Where did you come up with the idea Quote “Jesus flatly rejected being King during His first coming”Unquote? What scriptures are you basing this assumption on? John said ”He came unto his own, and his own received him not”. I’ll take John’s word here ifyou don’t mind.
And I'll take Amos'word over yours any day! And also, Paul's! He wrote:
Romans 16:25- "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began"
When Jesus came, the secret of who the Messiah is was revealed. There's NOTHING about any "secret age" nonsense.
But how can you believe the coming of Messiah was a secret? This was a very well know fact. You say you believe the “Old Testament”, but turn around and plead ignorance of what it says. Amos and Paul are worlds apart. That’s the problem of trying to mix LAW and ORDINANCS with GRACE. It will not WORK today.
Why can’t you just forget about Amos who is going to inherit the earth, and you are not. According to Paul’s gospel (you quote above) Jesus Christ can establish you as he preaches the secret kept by God since the world began. This secret was told to Paul if we will only listen to him, and understand what he is saying. What Paul preaches is not in prophecy, and until Paul, man could not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, which gospel He gave to Paul.
Now, as to JESUS' rejecting kingship at the time: John 6:15- "Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone."(That was after He had just fed some 5K people from one little picnic basket!)
We have to remember that God is in control, and not man. Notice “those men” in verse 14. “Those men” are not the leaders of Israel, the Sanhedrin. The High Priest resided over these, and no way would the High Priest or the Sanhedrin allow Jesus to live. It was not time for Jesus to go to the Cross.
Also as we continue to read in John 6 we see the reason those men wanted to make Him King. Not because they accepted Him as Messiah, but Jesus said “Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled”. They would have tried to make the “devil” King too, if he would feed them.
As for David's throne, and the existence of Israelites...Scripture is quite clear they both exist, the Israeli people have existed since Jacob's sons were born, and David's throne since the last 33 years of his life. How important was GOD'S promise to David? He STRONGLY reiterated it to Jeremiah, also promising there'd always be Levites(now part of the Jews...every one with the surname COHEN, Hebrew for 'priest')
I acknowledge this well known fact, and you can bet there will be some Cohen’s in the tribulation. We know God will not allow Satan to wipe out all of the Jews, but because of their unbelief there is no Temple today, and God has not made them a nation again. Until that time, there is no throne. Can you point to the throne of David today, and who is the King that sits on the throne. It’s coming, but not yet. Hebrews 1:13, ”But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?”
Did GOD say there'd always be a descendant of David ruling over ALL ISRAEL? Newp! OTOH, God made sure to place the story of His dividing Israel into Israel & Judah after Solomon's death, with each continuing as a separate kingdom, with the house of David ruling the Jews only.( Remember, Jew is a nick for JUDEAN, and includes the Benjaminites & most of the Levites as well as the tribe of Judah. Paul was a Jew of Benjamin.)
All tribes circa 700B.C. of the Patriarchs became known by that name Yehudee, or Jew. This is the reason Paul calls himself a Jew.
Believe David's throne ended with Zedekiah? NOT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE! Let's see what God said to Ezekiel as recorded in the KJV:
I have never said the throne of David has ended. It just so happens that I know no one is sitting on the throne today, for there is no kingdom. You are the one claiming it exists today, and if so, where is it? I look for the rapture. Until after our “new bodies” are caught up to Him in the air, there will be no throne of David.
Ezekiel 21:25- "And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,26Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
Quite plainly, God is referring to Zedekiah. And NOWHERE does He say the throne was ended; He says it WON'T BE THE SAME.
I have never said differently.
27 "I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him."
Amen!
Let's examine this passage closely. Though I'm certainly no Hebrew expert, I spoke with a local rabbi who knows Hebrew quite well, and here's what he had to say...the three 'overturns' are the Hebrew word 'avvah', which means, to ruin or distort, & it can also mean 'overturn' in the sense of despoiling. There are THREE such overturns in this Scripture, which PLAINLY shows the throne did NOT end with Zedekiah, just mentioned in Scripture! This is the ONLY verse in which 'avvah' appears in the whole Bible.
I admire your zeal, and dedication in this matter, but I understand about the throne of David. You have misread my posts. This study has done you well, as hopefully you’ll file this to have ready for an unbeliever. Feel free to use any information I have furnished here, as it is irrefutable. To bad you can't answer any, disproving same.
As for "and it shall be no more", the Hebrew is-
suwm...put, set, place
bow...come, enter, arrive
mishpat...right, privilege
Clearly, the Hebrew means it shall be no more OVERTURNED(not DESTROYED) until He comes who has the right to it, and that, of course, is JESUS. We see Jesus did NOT take over an earthly throne while here as a man. As for His ascent to heaven...in several parables, He portrays Himself as a nobleman who made a journey to a distant place TO RECEIVE HIS KINGDOM. He begins to rule AFTER HIS RETURN! Although He's always been a King, He hasn't yet physically received His kingdom.
Yes, and you are saying what I have been saying all along. I believe you are beginning to get the picture now. Before you said Quote “God said that a descendant of David would rule at least some Israelis DURING EVERY GENERATION FROM SOLOMON ONWARD.” Unquote. I’ve said there is none ruling today. They must wait until we are raptured, and the Tribulation has run its course, before He returns.
BTW, this is one verse where the KJV is the most-correct of the various English translations. There are many instances in the KJV where the predicate of a sentence is left uncompleted as compared to today's English. Thus, the word 'overturned' wasn't placed at the end of V. 27, but by the Hebrew, that's what it means. Otherwise, it would contradict the several previous verses in which GOD promises David an unending, uninterrupted dynasty. Anyone believe GOD didn't know all this beforehand?
For understanding, we must take into account verse 26, which shows Zedekiah will be the last king on David’s throne. Not until “Shiloh”, so that shoots down your theory of someone always in every generation sitting on the throne of David.
Things to consider from Scripture:
"exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high."
Zedekiah and all Judah was soon abased. Now, who was low? The ten tribes of Israel! Somewhere, there were some Israelis exalted, or Scripture is wrong.
Scripture is correct, and you are wrong. Verse 26 explains the crown is taken off, and awaits the coming of the kingdom.
"this shall not be the same." What was God talking about? Why, the diadem & crown, of course, the symbols of royalty. How could they not be the same? The ruler could be known by another title such as "chief" or "head man", or any number of other names, while still being the de-facto ruler.
David had many sons, but the throne was established by GOD through SOLOMON. Solomon had many sons himself, and thus many descendants, and God is not specific about which one should be the ruler. Some, he DQ'd their offspring, such as Jeconiah; others, He removed, such as Zedekiah.
While CERTAINLY NOT a racist "British Israelite", the throne of England seems a possible candidate for the throne which jesus will take over. It's been overturned twice, from Ireland, to Scotland, to England(by King James, king of Scotland).
Strange sayings.
HOW SURE IS GOD'S PROMISE TO DAVID?
"I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I
anointed him......... My mercy will I keep for him for ever
more, and my COVENANT shall STAND FAST with him. His SEED
also will I make to endure forever, and HIS THRONE AS THE
DAYS OF HEAVEN. If his children forsake my law, and walk not
in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my
commandments, then will I visit their transgression with the
rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my
lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer
my faithfulness to fail. My COVENANT WILL I NOT BREAK, nor
alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I
SWORN by my HOLINESS that I will not lie unto David. HIS
SEED SHALL ENDURE FOREVER AND HIS THRONE AS THE SUN BEFORE
ME. IT SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOR EVER AS THE MOON, AND AS A
FAITHFUL WITNESS IN HEAVEN." (PS.89 :20-37).
IT'S RIGHT THERE IN YOUR OWN BIBLE, whether you use an older version or a newer one. DAVID'S DYNASTY IS NOT TO BE INTERRUPTED FOR SO MUCH AS ONE GENERATION!!!!!!!!! It may be called something else, but it's still the SAME DYNASTY or Scripture is wrong. And, no, I'm NOT lending any private interpretation to Scripture; I'm pointing out what's LITERALLY WRITTEN in Scripture, letting it interpret itself!
The Holy Spirit will allow you to see His interpretation if you ask, and it is the will of God.
Sorry, Ituttut, your "secret age" stuff is malarkey, with NO SCRIPTURAL BACKING, while the facts of Israel, Judah, and David's throne are plainly proclaimed in SCRIPTURE. I have answered with SCRIPTURE, not guesswork or opinion.
No backing other than the Words of Christ from heaven who speaks to all today, not just to the Jew as you have quoted, and completely miss the message that Zedekiah is the last King of the Jews, until after the Second coming of Christ, shown to us in prophecy.
I'm open to any other existing rulership being of David's dynasty, if one can present proof. Right now, to me, the British throne seems the best candidate, due to its two known overturns and its world influence. ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, IT'S GOTTA BE HERE SOMEWHERE!Click to expand...
I have shown you truth, and that is all I can do. Christian faith, ituttut. -
Ituttut, I asked you for some SCRIPTURE to back your "secret age" mumbo-jumbo, and you've provided none.
The present nation of Israel is actually the nation of Judah. Only an idiot would say differently. Now, is GOD building them or not? Shortly after they became a nation again, her neighbors ganged up on her, intending to wipe them out, but instead, the Jews whupped them badly, and in every subsequent war, the Jews have THRASHED the ragheads badly, so that now, 55 million ragheads tremble every time Ariel Sharon, representing 4.8 million people, rattles his saber. Zechariah's prophecies about the Philistines has come to pass. Remember, today's Palestinians are largely the descendants of the old Philistines. They exist today only at the pleasure of the Jews. Just as God told Zechariah, Ashdod is occupied by a foreign people(the Jews) as seen through Palestinian eyes. The other four great Philistine cities are archaeological digs today.
And what about EGYPT? Through Isaiah, God spoke against Egypt, saying she would be a base(low) nation, and in Ch.19, He says Egypt will fail in everything she tries. Is this not now true? Does Egypt not rely upon the USA for most of her foods and medicines? And is she not afraid of the Jews, whether she admits it or not? Isaiah 19:17, NKJV-"And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts which He has determined against it.
(Reading onward in Ch.19, we see God is eventually gonna BLESS Egypt. Why, I don't know; I know only that HE said it & therefore it WILL happen.)
You've missed the bus about the Gentiles too, saying none were preached to until the house of Cornelius was. The apostle Luke was a Greek. The samaritan woman to whom Jesus referred about dogs was accounted worthy by Him because of her faith. Then there was the Roman centurion whose servant Jesus healed by His word, saying, "Never have I seen such faith in all Israel!" True, they didn't receive the Holy Spirit at that time, but there can be no doubt that they believed in Him and that He saved them. And what about the Samaritan woman at the well?
In Romans 1:16, 2:9-10, Paul says salvation (and PUNISHMENT) is for the Jew first, then for the Greek. The Greek is mentioned because the only peoples more Gentile to the Jews than were the Greeks were the Samaritans & the Amalekites. True, Jesus went only to JEWISH towns, but there were doubtlessly many Gentiles living in them also. Gentiles were saved early on.
As for David's throne, you're completely wrong. God plainly says IT WAS ESTABLISHED FOREVER, BEGINNING WITH SOLOMON. Ezekiel 12:26 refers to Zedekiah. God removed the rulership from him. If it were disestablished at the time, then God was wrong when He said it was established FOREVER, and again, how could it be overturned three times if it didn't exist? And when He said it wouldn't be the same, can you say with certainty how it would change? Of course not. Instead of being called "king", the ruler could be called "Prime Minister, President, Generalissimo, Chief", or any other of a whole host of titles. We all know that in England the PM has more power than the queen, and in Japan the Emperor is mostly a figurehead. In Cuba, Castro has more power than any of today's kings, and Saddam had similar power in Iraq. And it's plain from Scripture that God did NOT establish David's throne over ALL Israel for all time, as He took all but the Jews from Rehoboam's rule. I BELIEVE GOD'S WORD LITERALLY, and do NOT subscribe to man's private interpretations. God said He was establishing David's throne FOREVER, beginning with Solomon; He STRONGLY reiterated that promise to Jeremiah, and I believe it as Baruch wrote it, free of the imaginings and speculations of man.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason God reiterated His promise to David so strongly to Jeremiah was that He was preparing to dethrone Zedekiah, and He wanted to assure Jeremiah that He was NOT ending David's throne, but only Zedekiah's line? Remember, Solomon had many sons, and after him, God did NOT specify which one(s) would continue on David's throne. God also said that if they sinned, (as He knew they would) He would NOT remove the throne from them as He'd done with Saul.
Ituttut: Scripture is correct, and you are wrong. Verse 26 explains the crown is taken off, and awaits the coming of the kingdom.
No, YOU are wrong. Verse 25 shows God is speaking of Zedekiah, and V.26 says He is ending Zed's reign, NOT that He's ending the THRONE. I believe the Scriptures LITERALLY, and that's literally what they say here. It is YOU who cannot refute what I've said, by SCRIPTURE. God said He would establish David's throne FOREVER, beginning with Solomon, and there no conditions set...that was GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL PROMISE TO DAVID! God said He would NOT end the throne nor remove it from David's house if his descendants sinned, as God jolly well knew they would. Therefore, if God ended the throne with Zed, He broke His promise to David, which He had just reiterated strongly to Jeremiah.
I notice you cannot refute anything I have put forward, so you avoid scripture I have presented.
It was refuted before you ever said it. And you've put forward mostly the same Scriptures I have. All YOU'VE put forward otherwise is a private interpretation of these Scriptures.
I have just disproved your erroneous take of the throne.
No, you haven't. God said it's established FOREVER, and HE is right, not you.
Surely you must know the King will have to be in the Holy City of Jerusalem.
And so He will be, once He takes over His throne. He will move it there from wherever it is when He arrives.
The City is not Holy today, and there is no Temple, and no throne.
It's still being trodden underfoot by the gentiles, but not for much longer. The rise of Judah proves the time of the gentiles is drawing to a close. You say we're not under prophecy today? BAH ! HUMBUG! SHAME ON YOU! The rise of Judah, her moving her capitol to Jerusalem, her crushing defeats of her enemies, her occupation and development of Ashdod, her growing wealth, her military potential, were NOT accomplished by human effort! In 57 years, Judah has gone from a collection of kibbutzim and villages to the 3rd or 4th-strongest military power of all time. How could a nation of only some 4 million people do that on its own? I believe prophecy is being fulfilled before our very eyes, and that your "secred age" malarkey is just that...MALARKEY!
And there certainly is no throne hidden in any Gentile nation.
Can you PROVE it? Can you prove GOD wrong? After all, the ten tribes are still hidden, thinking themselves gentiles. You have no answer for "exalt him that is low & abase him that is high". You try to tell me God said the throne is ended when that's NOT what SCRIPTURE says.
While I don't question your salvation, you've shown us that your so-called exegesis is really EISEGESIS, placing your private interpretation, or that of some crackpot, on Scripture. History clearly bears out the truth of prophecy and Scripture LITERALLY. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Robycop3, good! Thanks, and God bless! The Scriptures say, two things, different, but not contradictory - it says, "answer the fool in his foolishness"; and it says, "Do not answer the fool in his foolishness!"
I just say this again: that Paul said, that God gave the Promises and the Blessing, to the "SEED, that is, Jesus Christ". He reserved no Promise and no Blessing to either men born of Hagar, or, men born of Sarah - but to Christ only, and in, and through Him, through faith by grace, to any man.
GE -
While I will NOT call the gent in question any uncomplimentary name, I WILL say he's picked up some foolish doctrine somewhere. I have absolutely no reason to not believe the Scriptures literally. God plainly said that He'd establish David's throne FOREVER, beginning with Solomon. He plainly said He would NOT remove the throne from David's line if they sinned. If He had ended the throne with Zedekiah, that woulda been against His previous words, which He had recently reiterated to Jeremiah. He said the throne WOULD NOT BE THE SAME, not that it was ending. Ezekiel 21:25-26 are NOT prophecies that the throne was ended...it's a literal command for Zedekiah to step down from it, which God carried out through the Babylonians. God was especially angry with Zed because Zed had promised loyalty to Nebuchadnezzar, IN GOD'S NAME...and then, rebelled.
How could the throne not be the same? It could be known by another name, such as Presidency. After all, the ten tribes of Israel are called by other names, and don't know they're Israelis. And, if the throne ended with Zed, how could it be overturned three times? And even if Jesus had become de-facto King in His first coming, that would still leave a gap of over 600 years between kings, if the throne had ended.
Here's what gabriel said to Mary concerning Jesus: Luke 1:31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
We know Jesus didn't become great nor did He reign over Israel while He was here before. This is a future event. And for GOD to give JESUS the throne of David, IT'S GOTTA BE HERE!! Great scott; that's COMMON SENSE, especially in light of God's promise that He had established it FOREVER!
As for any "secret age"......This is the AGE OF GRACE. Anyone can be saved by believing in JESUS CHRIST as Lord & Savior, accepting His GRACE(unmerited favor) to salvation. Nothing secret about that, nor in the actual ministry of Jesus Himself. All is up front and open! -
Originally posted by robycop3:
Ituttut, I asked you for some SCRIPTURE to back your "secret age" mumbo-jumbo, and you've provided none.
Proof furnished, but you are unable to see it.
Then you deny that Christ revealed to Paul things before unknown to man. Now, now, robycope3, surely you must believe Christ as He speaks from heaven.
The present nation of Israel is actually the nation of Judah. Only an idiot would say differently. Now, is GOD building them or not? Shortly after they became a nation again, her neighbors ganged up on her, intending to wipe them out, but instead, the Jews whupped them badly, and in every subsequent war, the Jews have THRASHED the ragheads badly, so that now, 55 million ragheads tremble every time Ariel Sharon, representing 4.8 million people, rattles his saber. Zechariah's prophecies about the Philistines has come to pass. Remember, today's Palestinians are largely the descendants of the old Philistines. They exist today only at the pleasure of the Jews. Just as God told Zechariah, Ashdod is occupied by a foreign people(the Jews) as seen through Palestinian eyes. The other four great Philistine cities are archaeological digs today.
Hogwash. You must think you are in hell, or going through the tribulation, for this sure isn’t heaven today. Since it none of the three above then we must be in a dispensation not before known. This is the Grace dispensation. No one is sitting on the throne on earth today. Can’t you get it through your head that Zedekiah was the last king? You can easily find this in Ezekiel 12. The throne is going to be forever, but today He that will occupy is in Heaven.
God will decide when Israel again becomes a nation. Man recognizes Israel today, but God doesn’t. Take time out and read just the first chapter of Ephesians.
The “Times of the Gentiles” is still effective today. Are the Jews running the show? They are depending on the US of A to stay alive. As God is in control this must be of His doing, but God will “overturn” once again during trbulation.
And what about EGYPT? Through Isaiah, God spoke against Egypt, saying she would be a base(low) nation, and in Ch.19, He says Egypt will fail in everything she tries. Is this not now true? Does Egypt not rely upon the USA for most of her foods and medicines? And is she not afraid of the Jews, whether she admits it or not? Isaiah 19:17, NKJV-"And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts which He has determined against it.
(Reading onward in Ch.19, we see God is eventually gonna BLESS Egypt. Why, I don't know; I know only that HE said it & therefore it WILL happen.)
Same answer. Egypt relies on America, as does Israel.
You've missed the bus about the Gentiles too, saying none were preached to until the house of Cornelius was. The apostle Luke was a Greek. The samaritan woman to whom Jesus referred about dogs was accounted worthy by Him because of her faith. Then there was the Roman centurion whose servant Jesus healed by His word, saying, "Never have I seen such faith in all Israel!" True, they didn't receive the Holy Spirit at that time, but there can be no doubt that they believed in Him and that He saved them. And what about the Samaritan woman at the well?
Luke was a protégé of Paul, a fellow traveler and helper to Paul so this was after Damascus Road where you don’t take seriously that Christ spoke mouth to mouth with Paul. Luke was a Christian and did not follow Peter, or James, as they said they would not preach to the uncircumcised. Why don’t you read your bible?
Why don’t you check further into the woman you call a Samaritan woman. She wasn’t. The woman in question is as Gentile as you can get. She is a Syro-phoenician Greek woman with many different bloodlines in her. As you may possibly know the Samaritans are half-breeds, part Jew and then whatever. Jesus healed the daughter because of the heathen’s faith. It does not say this woman at that time was saved. But if you insist, then you must also insist she would have to be a proselyte to the Jewish faith, before Pentecost. She could not be saved then by the gospel of Paul, or for that matter under Peters preaching. You lack understanding in this area also.
Jesus healed in the case of the Gentiles, and a Half Jewish woman was not a Christian, for Christ had not yet spilled His blood. You don’t seem to believe very many in the Bible. Peter tells you point blank, that he was allowed to be the first to see a Gentile saved – Acts 15:7, ”And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.”
Please answer why you disbelieve Peter, and why you believe whoever it is that you are listening to.
In Romans 1:16, 2:9-10, Paul says salvation (and PUNISHMENT) is for the Jew first, then for the Greek. The Greek is mentioned because the only peoples more Gentile to the Jews than were the Greeks were the Samaritans & the Amalekites. True, Jesus went only to JEWISH towns, but there were doubtlessly many Gentiles living in them also. Gentiles were saved early on.
Why do you keep batting the air? Jesus and His Apostles, and any Jew worth their salt did not associate with the Gentile, and never preached directly to them. You see this in the encounter above about table scraps. The Apostles tried to get Jesus to keep ignoring this woman.
You need to brush up on Acts 10 again, of what Peter tells Cornelius. Peter said He sure wouldn’t be caught preaching to him, much less even associating with him, but he, Peter, was there only because God had told him to. You’ll not find Peter preaching to another Gentile. We know this because the Pentecostal church told Paul that they would not peach to any but to the circumcised. Paul told them to keep their hands off of the Gentiles as they didn’t have to be circumcised, which then meant they would have to be water baptized, and do the other ordinances of the Jew.
Please answer this with scripture to refute or quite denying what the Bible says.
As for David's throne, you're completely wrong. God plainly says IT WAS ESTABLISHED FOREVER, BEGINNING WITH SOLOMON. Ezekiel 12:26 refers to Zedekiah. God removed the rulership from him. If it were disestablished at the time, then God was wrong when He said it was established FOREVER, and again, how could it be overturned three times if it didn't exist? And when He said it wouldn't be the same, can you say with certainty how it would change? Of course not. Instead of being called "king", the ruler could be called "Prime Minister, President, Generalissimo, Chief", or any other of a whole host of titles. We all know that in England the PM has more power than the queen, and in Japan the Emperor is mostly a figurehead. In Cuba, Castro has more power than any of today's kings, and Saddam had similar power in Iraq. And it's plain from Scripture that God did NOT establish David's throne over ALL Israel for all time, as He took all but the Jews from Rehoboam's rule. I BELIEVE GOD'S WORD LITERALLY, and do NOT subscribe to man's private interpretations. God said He was establishing David's throne FOREVER, beginning with Solomon; He STRONGLY reiterated that promise to Jeremiah, and I believe it as Baruch wrote it, free of the imaginings and speculations of man.
I have never said the throne was not established forever. Do you think anyone would recognize this “LITERAL THRONE”. Do you know what it looks like? When was it last seen, and where? I believe the Word of God, and it does not contradict. How can you believe a King today sits on the LITERAL THRONE” that David sat on? I’ve never heard that one before. You can make up some wild things robycop3, or believe someone who does. You can’t produce this King, but you insist he exists, but not sure where he and those before him are hiding out. And you can’t produce or describe the Throne that David sat on.[/b]
The throne was established forever. It will still be there when it is ready for use. You admit you believe a “man”, Baruch. I believe God. One more time – Zedekiah was the last to sit on a throne, and that is exactly what is found in Ezekiel 12. Those you follow, and believe are without understanding in this matter.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason God reiterated His promise to David so strongly to Jeremiah was that He was preparing to dethrone Zedekiah, and He wanted to assure Jeremiah that He was NOT ending David's throne, but only Zedekiah's line? Remember, Solomon had many sons, and after him, God did NOT specify which one(s) would continue on David's throne. God also said that if they sinned, (as He knew they would) He would NOT remove the throne from them as He'd done with Saul.
We are to throw out erroneous thoughts, and concentrate on what God says, and not man. You are confused for Ezekiel 12 speaks of the Whole Line of Israel when it states “O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord God.” And then “Thus saith the Lord God; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord God.” You don’t have a leg to stand on. No one will sit on that throne again until God speaks that it shall be done. He is talking about the House of Israel, those of the Jewish faith, and it pertains to Jerusalem.
Ituttut: Scripture is correct, and you are wrong. Verse 26 explains the crown is taken off, and awaits the coming of the kingdom.
No, YOU are wrong. Verse 25 shows God is speaking of Zedekiah, and V.26 says He is ending Zed's reign, NOT that He's ending the THRONE. I believe the Scriptures LITERALLY, and that's literally what they say here. It is YOU who cannot refute what I've said, by SCRIPTURE. God said He would establish David's throne FOREVER, beginning with Solomon, and there no conditions set...that was GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL PROMISE TO DAVID! God said He would NOT end the throne nor remove it from David's house if his descendants sinned, as God jolly well knew they would. Therefore, if God ended the throne with Zed, He broke His promise to David, which He had just reiterated strongly to Jeremiah.
Did Ezekiel and Zedekiah live after David. Then you are to believe God as He speaks to His prophet. Where have I ever said the Throne is not forever? God’s throne is, but the LITERAL THRONE THAT DAVID SAT OWN, is not that throne you are looking for and believe hidden somewhere.
Don’t put false words in my mouth. It is now up to you to produce another king that sat upon the throne. Where are all the kings from Zedekiah until now? Who is it that is staring God in the face and saying, I don’t believe you. My friend, it is not I that shakes my fist in His face.
His throne is established and One will sit on that throne in the time that God has chosen, and no one is seated there today. Tell me please, why can’t you give me the names of all the Kings of the people of God since Zedekiah? Where is the throne? You know it can be no place but in Jerusalem, yet you talk of Europe? Now you know this can’t be right, don’t you robycop3?
I believe Christ Jesus is now seated on the right hand of His Father, until all things are put under His feet. One will sit on that throne that was established forever, in the future.
I notice you cannot refute anything I have put forward, so you avoid scripture I have presented.
It was refuted before you ever said it. And you've put forward mostly the same Scriptures I have. All YOU'VE put forward otherwise is a private interpretation of these Scriptures.
You evidently haven’t been ready my posts.
I have just disproved your erroneous take of the throne.
No, you haven't. God said it's established FOREVER, and HE is right, not you.
You make stuff up. I have never said his throne was not established forever. It’s just that no one will occupy until He comes.
Surely you must know the King will have to be in the Holy City of Jerusalem.
And so He will be, once He takes over His throne. He will move it there from wherever it is when He arrives.
You’ve got to be kidding. Show me in scripture where the King of the Jews has a throne not in Jerusalem.
And you say today it is somewhere in Europe? Show scripture, or admit you are reading from some book written by man.
The City is not Holy today, and there is no Temple, and no throne.
It's still being trodden underfoot by the gentiles, but not for much longer. The rise of Judah proves the time of the gentiles is drawing to a close. You say we're not under prophecy today? BAH ! HUMBUG! SHAME ON YOU! The rise of Judah, her moving her capitol to Jerusalem, her crushing defeats of her enemies, her occupation and development of Ashdod, her growing wealth, her military potential, were NOT accomplished by human effort! In 57 years, Judah has gone from a collection of kibbutzim and villages to the 3rd or 4th-strongest military power of all time. How could a nation of only some 4 million people do that on its own? I believe prophecy is being fulfilled before our very eyes, and that your "secred age" malarkey is just that...MALARKEY!
I have never said God has forgotten His people. No one can ever eradicate them. But today God is not with them as a nation. Where is the Shekina Glory? The everlasting throne will be forever once it is again occupied, by its rightful owner.
You really are confused over this matter. In one place you say the throne is perhaps in Europe, and now you say the nation is in Jerusalem. Please explain why the throne and a king are in Europe even though you contend God has again set-up Israel? Don’t you think God would have them move it back to Israel. Do you perhaps think they could be hiding it from Him?
And there certainly is no throne hidden in any Gentile nation.
Can you PROVE it? Can you prove GOD wrong? After all, the ten tribes are still hidden, thinking themselves gentiles. You have no answer for "exalt him that is low & abase him that is high". You try to tell me God said the throne is ended when that's NOT what SCRIPTURE says.
While I don't question your salvation, you've shown us that your so-called exegesis is really EISEGESIS, placing your private interpretation, or that of some crackpot, on Scripture. History clearly bears out the truth of prophecy and Scripture LITERALLY.Click to expand...
I don’t believe you are reading my posts. I answered “exalt him that is low & abase him that is high”. Please pay attention this time. Three times the word of God came to Ezekiel, in verses 21:1, 21:8, and 21:18. This is important for God wants us to understand about Jerusalem, Zedekiah, and the throne, and the future. Verses as follow:
2 – “prophesy against the land of Israel”.
3 – “I am against thee”.
4 – His sword “will not return any more” to His sheath. This means judgment then, just as in A.D. 70, and what lies ahead.
25 – “And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end .” This is talking about Zedekiah.
26 – “Thus saith the Lord God; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.” It is not going to be the same anymore. He that is high, Zedekiah will be made low.
27 – “I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.” God says here that He will give the throne that will be in Jerusalem. He overturns Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in that dispensation; Overturned in 70A.D., and will do so in the end as anti-Christ takes over Israel. It starts with Zedekiah and ends with anti-Christ, and the throne that was established will be occupied again as verse 27 says God will give it to Him. -
Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Robycop3, good! Thanks, and God bless! The Scriptures say, two things, different, but not contradictory - it says, "answer the fool in his foolishness"; and it says, "Do not answer the fool in his foolishness!"
I just say this again: that Paul said, that God gave the Promises and the Blessing, to the "SEED, that is, Jesus Christ". He reserved no Promise and no Blessing to either men born of Hagar, or, men born of Sarah - but to Christ only, and in, and through Him, through faith by grace, to any man.
GEClick to expand... -
Sorry, Ituttut, your private interpretation will go nowhere. God told David that He would establish his throne FOREVER, BEGINNING WITH SOLOMON. God said that if David's descendants sinned(which David, Solomon, and all the others certainly did!) that He would NOT end the dynasty as He did Saul's, but He would chastise them with rods of iron. Again, He strongly reiterated that promise to Jeremiah, saying that if one could break His ordinances of the cosmic order, then one could break His promises to David.
Did I say that a literal throne of David's, a ceremonial chair that a king or queen sits in, is hidden somewhere? No, I said that the ruling dynasty of David's descendants still exists somewhere, with at least one of them ruling over some Israelites somewhere. God said it wouldn't be the same. Right now, it could be any title from actual king ot quenn to a head of a clan. FOR THE RULERSHIP TO EXIST UNBROKEN AS GOD PROMISED DAVID, THERE HAS TO BE AN EXISTING RULER ACTUALLY RULING ISRAELITES! That's common sense. Remember, in several of His parables, Jesus portrays Himself as a nobleman who journeyed to receive His kingdom. When he returned, HE WAS KING, and took over the rule of the land in His parables. And in His parables, His rule was all-encompassing.
YOU question MY understanding? I believe the Scriptures LITERALLY. I have no reason NOT to thus believe them. History, archaeology, and current events bear this out. How you can deny that modern Israel is the beginning of the restoration of Judah as God promised is beyond me, in the light of the prophesies fulfilled within the last 50 years.
King in Jerusalem? Jesus WILL rule from there, but there's nothing in Scripture that says David's throne MUST be there till He returns.
No one occupying David's throne(rulership)? If that were true, then that rulership would no longer exist, would it, and God's promise woulda failed. No, I don't know for sure where it is or who's on it, but I DO know it exists because God said it would exist FOREVER, unbroken. I have offered the British throne as a possibility because it's been overturned three times, and is both prominent and quite ancient. However, my view is not set in stone except for the view that David's throne IS here and IS occupied because GOD SAID IT WOULD BE. YOUR view is a denial of one of God's most enphatic promises ever made to one man, and you simply cannot match it to Scripture without a lotta cutting, shaving, denying, & twisting. -
Originally posted by robycop3:
Sorry, Ituttut, your private interpretation will go nowhere. God told David that He would establish his throne FOREVER, BEGINNING WITH SOLOMON. God said that if David's descendants sinned(which David, Solomon, and all the others certainly did!) that He would NOT end the dynasty as He did Saul's, but He would chastise them with rods of iron. Again, He strongly reiterated that promise to Jeremiah, saying that if one could break His ordinances of the cosmic order, then one could break His promises to David.
But robycope3 it is not my private interpretation. It is the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, and I know of at least a few Christians that believe as I, and as God informs. But even if no one else agreed with His Word, I would for when we correctly divide His Word, it is the Holy Spirits interpretation.
I let slide a couple of times your reference to Solomon. I was hoping you would catch your mistake. The throne of David does not come through Solomon. I was hoping you were not denying that Mary was a virgin, and that Jesus was not the Son of God.
I was trying to show you there is no King of Israel, today sitting on any throne, as no King after Zedekiah will set on the throne of David coming through Solomon, and no one will sit on the throne until after the tribulation.
The “everlasting throne” did not go through Solomon, but through Nathan, a son of David. To go through Solomon would make Joseph the father of Jesus. His Word says Mary was a virgin. Mary and Joseph did not have intercourse until after the Holy Spirit impregnated her, and I am sure Mary and Joseph’s marriage was not consummated until after Mary delivered the Son of God, Jesus.
God is the Father of Jesus, and Joseph is His father surrogate. Mary is of the seed of David through David’s son Nathan. The Throne is Unoccupied today, and any that tries to occupy will be “overturned”. Satan will be overturned, and the rightful owner with then take possession of the throne forever more.[/b]
I can enlighten further if you wish, using scripture. I do not put forth things that cannot be proved by scripture.
Did I say that a literal throne of David's, a ceremonial chair that a king or queen sits in, is hidden somewhere? No, I said that the ruling dynasty of David's descendants still exists somewhere, with at least one of them ruling over some Israelites somewhere. God said it wouldn't be the same. Right now, it could be any title from actual king ot quenn to a head of a clan. FOR THE RULERSHIP TO EXIST UNBROKEN AS GOD PROMISED DAVID, THERE HAS TO BE AN EXISTING RULER ACTUALLY RULING ISRAELITES! That's common sense. Remember, in several of His parables, Jesus portrays Himself as a nobleman who journeyed to receive His kingdom. When he returned, HE WAS KING, and took over the rule of the land in His parables. And in His parables, His rule was all-encompassing.
YOU question MY understanding? I believe the Scriptures LITERALLY. I have no reason NOT to thus believe them. History, archaeology, and current events bear this out. How you can deny that modern Israel is the beginning of the restoration of Judah as God promised is beyond me, in the light of the prophesies fulfilled within the last 50 years.
King in Jerusalem? Jesus WILL rule from there, but there's nothing in Scripture that says David's throne MUST be there till He returns.
No one occupying David's throne(rulership)? If that were true, then that rulership would no longer exist, would it, and God's promise woulda failed. No, I don't know for sure where it is or who's on it, but I DO know it exists because God said it would exist FOREVER, unbroken. I have offered the British throne as a possibility because it's been overturned three times, and is both prominent and quite ancient. However, my view is not set in stone except for the view that David's throne IS here and IS occupied because GOD SAID IT WOULD BE. YOUR view is a denial of one of God's most enphatic promises ever made to one man, and you simply cannot match it to Scripture without a lotta cutting, shaving, denying, & twisting.Click to expand...
As I study further in His Word to disprove the way of man, I find your argument will not hold water. Look at I Kings 2:12, ”Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” Whose kingdom is here greatly established? Solomon’s, and not David’s. That kingdom ended with Zedekiah, but David’s continues, but not realized.
The house of Israel would not accept the One to set upon the throne of Israel. This one of God and of woman was exiled from His rightful place by His people. The Holy Ghost was then also rejected a year later after Pentecost. The throne remains empty for there is no Holy City to place it, and no Temple therein, and Israel has no King. ituttut. -
Ituttut: But robycope3 it is not my private interpretation. It is the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, and I know of at least a few Christians that believe as I, and as God informs. But even if no one else agreed with His Word, I would for when we correctly divide His Word, it is the Holy Spirits interpretation.
So, the Holy Spirit visited you personally and gave you an advanced revelation leaving all the rest of us still believing the Scriptures are correct as written? Yeah, right...
I let slide a couple of times your reference to Solomon. I was hoping you would catch your mistake. The throne of David does not come through Solomon. I was hoping you were not denying that Mary was a virgin, and that Jesus was not the Son of God.
It's not MY reference. After reading the following Scriptures, please read the surrounding verses to see exactly TO WHOM God is referring and speaking.
2 Samuel 7:13
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
1 Kings 9:5
then I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, as I promised David your father, saying, "You shall not fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.'
1 Chronicles 17:12
He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever.
1 Chronicles 17:14
And I will establish him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and his throne shall be established forever.""'
1 Chronicles 22:10
He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'
2 Chronicles 7:18
then I will establish the throne of your kingdom, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, "You shall not fail to have a man as ruler in Israel.'
2 Chronicles 9:8
Blessed be the LORD your God, who delighted in you, setting you on His throne to be king for the LORD your God! Because your God has loved Israel, to establish them forever, therefore He made you king over them, to do justice and righteousness."
Psalm 89:4
"Your seed I will establish forever, And build up your throne to all generations."'Selah
(All Scriptures from the NKJV)
The “everlasting throne” did not go through Solomon, but through Nathan, a son of David.
So the Bible is wrong? I see...
To go through Solomon would make Joseph the father of Jesus. His Word says Mary was a virgin. Mary and Joseph did not have intercourse until after the Holy Spirit impregnated her, and I am sure Mary and Joseph’s marriage was not consummated until after Mary delivered the Son of God, Jesus.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. But most of the rest of your pontification is out on left field anyway, so I shouldn't expect any better.
God is the Father of Jesus, and Joseph is His father surrogate. Mary is of the seed of David through David’s son Nathan. The Throne is Unoccupied today, and any that tries to occupy will be “overturned”. Satan will be overturned, and the rightful owner with then take possession of the throne forever more.
Case in point, against all reality. The "throne" CANNOT be here if it's unoccupied.
I can enlighten further if you wish, using scripture. I do not put forth things that cannot be proved by scripture.
So far, you've had an obvious track record of doing JUST THAT!
As I study further in His Word to disprove the way of man, I find your argument will not hold water. Look at I Kings 2:12, ”Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” Whose kingdom is here greatly established? Solomon’s, and not David’s.
How silly! David was Solomon's father; DAVID built the kingdom under God's direction; Solomon inherited what God through David had built.
That kingdom ended with Zedekiah, but David’s continues, but not realized.
Then you're calling GOD a LIAR. You're swimming in DANGEROUS WATERS, Bro.
The house of Israel would not accept the One to set upon the throne of Israel. This one of God and of woman was exiled from His rightful place by His people. The Holy Ghost was then also rejected a year later after Pentecost. The throne remains empty for there is no Holy City to place it, and no Temple therein, and Israel has no King. ituttut.
Poppycock.
Somewhere, there is a descendant of David's (and SOLOMON'S) ruling over Israelites, just as God said there'd ALWAYS be. The ONLY promise God reiterates in such manner as He reiterated His promist to David is the promise of the Messiah.
And please read your Bible, 2 Chronicles 7, to see whom GOD said would be David's son through whom He would establish David's throne forever...the SAME SON who would build the temple...the SAME SON to whom God was speaking! -
Originally posted by robycop3:
Ituttut: But robycope3 it is not my private interpretation. It is the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, and I know of at least a few Christians that believe as I, and as God informs. But even if no one else agreed with His Word, I would for when we correctly divide His Word, it is the Holy Spirits interpretation.
So, the Holy Spirit visited you personally and gave you an advanced revelation leaving all the rest of us still believing the Scriptures are correct as written? Yeah, right...
I’m no different than any other Christian. Don’t you have access to His Word? When we are Christian, don’t we house the Holy Spirit in us? We ask as we study His Word for Him to interpret what He wrote. If it is God’s will, our prayer is answered.
I let slide a couple of times your reference to Solomon. I was hoping you would catch your mistake. The throne of David does not come through Solomon. I was hoping you were not denying that Mary was a virgin, and that Jesus was not the Son of God.
It's not MY reference. After reading the following Scriptures, please read the surrounding verses to see exactly TO WHOM God is referring and speaking.
2 Samuel 7:13
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
7:12-13, ”And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. ” God will set up David’s seed, and God will establish Jesus Christ’s kingdom. Christ Jesus will build a house for God’s name, and God will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. In the following we can see Christ will have a Kingdom, and not David. ”For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
1 Kings 9:5
then I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, as I promised David your father, saying, "You shall not fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.'
You just can’t lift verses out of His Word, and try to make them say something that contradicts God. 9:4-5, ”And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5. Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.” That is a Big if in verse 4. God has always dealt with Israel, the people that made covenant with Him, if you do this, then I will do this.
For understanding you must also include verses 6 and 7, ”But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: 7. Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people”. There is that little word again. If you turn from me, I will cut you off. You know, I know, and everybody knows they turned to idols, and He cut them off. This speaks to the earthly reign of the throne of David through Solomon, and not the everlasting throne of Christ Jesus, that came through David’s son Nathan.
1 Chronicles 17:12
He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever.
First please notice in verse 9 God will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more. No Gentile is in this promise.
Verse 10 reveals much information to us. ….. “Furthermore I tell thee that the Lord will build thee an house.” Please look at this again and see what it says. The Lord will build you, David a house. Solomon’s house is gone, and there is no house now. That house will not be until after “Jacobs troubles”.
Verse 11 then gets more specific. It is God (The Holy Spirit) that will raise up David’s seed, through David’s sons, and God will establish his Son’s kingdom.
Verse 12. It is Jesus Christ that will build the house, and God will establish Christ Jesus’ throne forever.
Does Jesus Christ have a Father? The Bible tells us He does. John 3:16, ” For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” What does verse 13 and 14 say? ”13. I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14. But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.” Here is the throne that is established for evermore. Grabbing a verse here, and then one there, and trying to make it the Word of God, does make it the Word of God. God does not contradict Himself. Man makes God into what they want God to be. We are to be what God wants us to be. Believers of His Word.
1 Chronicles 17:14
And I will establish him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and his throne shall be established forever.""'
See mine above
1 Chronicles 22:10
He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'
Look at verses 7-9 where David is talking to Solomon, the son of David. David says because of the blood that I have shed of man; God will not allow me to build a house of the name of the Lord my God. Please notice in verse 9 that a son will be born to David. But Solomon is already born, so there is one to come that will build the everlasting house so verse 9 is speaking of both Jesus, and of Solomon.
God is a God of division as He tells us in the first verse of the Bible. Here He divides the line of Nathan from the line of Solomon. We see this in verse 9”…. and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.” Israel had peace in Solomon’s days, as verse 9 points out. But verse 10 continues, not of Solomon, but of Jesus Christ. ”He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.” Jesus Christ will build a house, he shall be my son.
If we go with your thinking on this matter then you must believe that Solomon is the Son of God, and by his name you are to be saved. If you cannot agree with what God is showing us here, please give me your, or those you follow the interpretation of this verse.
2 Chronicles 7:18
then I will establish the throne of your kingdom, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, "You shall not fail to have a man as ruler in Israel.'
Again, you are just picking out a verse and using it for your own purposes. You must include the whole Word of God on this matter which includes II Chronicles 7:16-20, which says, 16”For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.” It is Jesus Christ’s name, eyes, and heart that is forever.
17. “And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;” There is that if again.
18. ” Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.” If you will do this, then I will do this. It is not a cut and dried matter. God always deals with His people by covenant. They agreed to a covenant with God, and that covenant says in their faith they must perform as agreed, or else. You will find it no other way when God is dealing with His nation.
Today God is not dealing with His nation, but the whole world, and it is by His grace, through faith of Jesus Christ, that we are saved with out any works, and without a covenant that we have made with Him. Love, Mercy, and Grace comes to us through Christ Jesus our savior.
19 and 20. ”But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; If covenant with me is broken ”Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations. That house was “overturned”.
2 Chronicles 9:8
Blessed be the LORD your God, who delighted in you, setting you on His throne to be king for the LORD your God! Because your God has loved Israel, to establish them forever, therefore He made you king over them, to do justice and righteousness."
Yes we all know that Solomon was King, even without the Queen of Sheba telling us this. That’s like Oprah Winfrey complimenting President George Bush. Solomon was King while he lived. He will not be the King of Israel in eternity.
Psalm 89:4
"Your seed I will establish forever, And build up your throne to all generations."'Selah
You need to understand what you are reading here. Verse 1 says ”I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.” David did not write this Psalm, but it is of the covenant with David. Notice it says ”I will sing, with my mouth of THY faithfulness. This is the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Verses 2 and 3 is God talking showing He made covenant with David, verse 4 is a reference to Jesus Christ, the seed of David, through David’s son Nathan.
(All Scriptures from the NKJV) Mine are from the KJV
The “everlasting throne” did not go through Solomon, but through Nathan, a son of David.
So the Bible is wrong? I see...
It is you that is wrong, for that is what God’s Word says. I quoted scripture, and I quote it above. That is not me talking, but God, and so be it if you don’t believe the Bible.
ituttut: To go through Solomon would make Joseph the father of Jesus. His Word says Mary was a virgin. Mary and Joseph did not have intercourse until after the Holy Spirit impregnated her, and I am sure Mary and Joseph’s marriage was not consummated until after Mary delivered the Son of God, Jesus.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. But most of the rest of your pontification is out on left field anyway, so I shouldn't expect any better.
It has everything to do with it? You have said Jesus came by way of Solomon. If He did then you are saying that Joseph is Jesus’ father. But I have shown you, kingship through Solomon went no further than King Zedekiah.
ituttut: God is the Father of Jesus, and Joseph is His father surrogate. Mary is of the seed of David through David’s son Nathan. The Throne is Unoccupied today, and any that tries to occupy will be “overturned”. Satan will be overturned, and the rightful owner with then take possession of the throne forever more.
Case in point, against all reality. The "throne" CANNOT be here if it's unoccupied.
I can enlighten further if you wish, using scripture. I do not put forth things that cannot be proved by scripture.
So far, you've had an obvious track record of doing JUST THAT!
Show me where I am wrong, and not by picking one verse out of context unexplained by you.
ituttut: As I study further in His Word to disprove the way of man, I find your argument will not hold water. Look at I Kings 2:12, ”Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” Whose kingdom is here greatly established? Solomon’s, and not David’s.
How silly! David was Solomon's father; DAVID built the kingdom under God's direction; Solomon inherited what God through David had built.
Then are you now changing course and saying Solomon doesn’t have a kingdom that he ruled over?
ituttut: That kingdom ended with Zedekiah, but David’s continues, but not realized.
Then you're calling GOD a LIAR. You're swimming in DANGEROUS WATERS, Bro.
All I did was show you scripture, and you deny what your God is trying to tell you. I did not write the Bible, so who then is calling God a liar?
I’m trying to help you see the truth of this matter. Surely you don’t believe Mary wasn’t a virgin, and Jesus came by way of Joseph.
You were so close at the beginning when you were in Jeremiah. An ancestor of Joseph’s had a curse upon him that made it impossible for one fathered by Joseph to sit on David’s throne. This ancestor was split off before Zedekiah became King. Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30. Coniah in chapter 22 is Jehoiakim in chapter 36. There was no one in Jehoiakim’s line that could ever sit on the throne.
There is no scripture where the curse was lifted pertaining to the throne. Jehoiakim was childless while sitting on the throne, but had children in captivity of Babylon.
ituttut: The house of Israel would not accept the One to set upon the throne of Israel. This one of God and of woman was exiled from His rightful place by His people. The Holy Ghost was then also rejected a year later after Pentecost. The throne remains empty for there is no Holy City to place it, and no Temple therein, and Israel has no King. ituttut.
Poppycock.
Somewhere, there is a descendant of David's (and SOLOMON'S) ruling over Israelites, just as God said there'd ALWAYS be. The ONLY promise God reiterates in such manner as He reiterated His promist to David is the promise of the Messiah.
And please read your Bible, 2 Chronicles 7, to see whom GOD said would be David's son through whom He would establish David's throne forever...the SAME SON who would build the temple...the SAME SON to whom God was speaking!Click to expand...
I hope you will read the Word in II Chronicles 7 near the start of this post. I don’t argue that Solomon built a Temple, but it's just that throne was not ever lasting, as it was “overturned” by Nebuchadnezzar. That is scripture talking and not I. The everlasting throne did not come through the line Solomon. You keep saying so, but you cannot find that in scripture. Someone has been feeding you false information.
You have been shown, and if you do not believe that Mary wasn’t a virgin, and the Son of God had to come through the line of Solomon, then God’s Word means nothing to you.
But surely you believe that Jesus Christ is the only Begotten Son of God, and not fathered by Joseph that came through the line of Solomon. I know you must believe you are saved by Grace, through faith, so you are saved even though you are following a belief of those that try to say the ever lasting throne is of Solomon, and not of David through the line of Nathan. You are putting the emphasis on Solomon, and God speaks of the everlasting throne coming through the line of David, and for it to be everlasting, the seed of David through the line Nathan, Mary must be impregnated by He that is everlasting, and this is the work of the Holy Spirit; not Solomon’s offspring, Joseph. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
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