I am in total agreement with you EWF, However, I am sure Luke has yet established for himself what he really means. I will assume, for the time being, that He is just not expressing himself clearly enough.
Perhaps, you are like me, the older I have gotten, I realize more and more just how much I do not know.
Does Calvinism require a higher spiritual intellect, spirituality, and...
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by R. Lawson, Jan 13, 2011.
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but to say it repeatedly indicates that he means it.
There is such a thing as righteous anger. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
There is such a thing as righteous anger.
Amy you are correct......so name the darkness & move forward. God does not want any of his children contemptuous of each other. Then hatred builds. I would not want that for any of the brothers or sisters. Would you? -
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Now Im only a Calvinist/ Reformed believer & we aren't suppose to read our Scripture, but even a dope like me knows it has a ton to say about forgiveness. Right. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Folks,
Those of you who say that Calvinists follow Calvin...it is not true. Calvinism wasn't fully articulated until the Remonstrants brought THEIR five points up. The Calvinists responded with TULIP.
When I was a Calvinist, I had NEVER read a single drop of Calvin (I did later, though). It was indeed a struggle. When I started my trek to Calvinism, I'd wake up sick every morning. Then one day Calvinism sunk in and I believed it to be true and I was much like brother Luke.
In any case, please stop saying that Calvinists "follow Calvin." It is indeed a very silly accusation.
In Christ,
Robb -
I would also hope the converse is true, we stop seeing "self salvationist" mantra or "you serve another god" tripe (especially from administrators and moderators). -
Indeed.
"The Calvinism of some men is not the Calvinism of John Calvin, nor the Calvinism of the Puritans, much less the Christianity of God." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Ceremony of Laying the First Stone of the New Tabernacle"
Calvin himself did not set out to create his own "-ism" or "movement":thumbs: -
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
But I will just shut up & move on....the Christian thing to do...:tongue3: -
"It is one thing to believe in the Doctrines of Grace, but quite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure Truth of God." —Charles Spurgeon, "Rivers of Water in a Dry Place"
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The issues surrounding theological and biblical education are, from my vantage point, primarily two:
1) One actually must "study" the Bible, in context, and in conjunction with other passages (cross reference) that speak to any given topic. Simple and plain passages illuminate difficult to interpret passages.
A) Doing this eliminates the horrific practice of making the Bible "say" whatever one wishes for it to say. In many a case, the verses submitted as "proof" for any given issue are not really that at all. A particular interpretation of a passage may be refuted when examined in context or alongside other biblical teachings on the same topic. Because the Bible is not "divided" nor is God "divided" some reconciliation must take place between texts that appear to refute each other.
B) Simply discovering a passage with a "word" within it that is the same as any given topic under discussion does not automatically mean that the passage under examination actually speaks to that topic. Additionally, the writers of Scripture worked under grammatical rules for their language in their era, which must be at least understood at a rudimentary level to grasp the actual context of the passage. Highlighting a key word in a passage as "proof" for any given position may or may not be true based on the original intent of the writer of the passage, as interpreted according to grammatical rules, not based on the interpretation of the reader of the passage using rules of grammar foreign to the original writer.
C) Failure to "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (2 Tim 2:15 (ESV) Focusing a "microscope" on a particular passage or word (or letter!) in a passage instead of using a "telescope" to see God's big picture can often lead to theological and doctrinal errors. The sort of study required to satisfy a "worker who has no need to be ashamed" is considerable, but not unaccessible by those without higher education. It just takes discipline and rigorous study habits. Merely reading and pointing out a passage that "proves" some doctrine rarely works out after more intensive study of that doctrine. Essentially, when one posts a Bible verse and uses it as proof, he or she is saying, "Thus saith the Lord..." One had, then, better understand that saying thus makes one responsible to the Lord for getting the doctrine or text correct. Failure makes one a "false prophet" (one who speaks forth the word of God) something God does not take lightly.
2) Theological education takes into account all of what was said about Bible study above, plus adds the study of the volumes of writing handed down for close to 2000 years by God's people -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. The study is not "difficult" but it is time consuming and will require disciplined study skills. Especially critical is the understanding of various theological positions and the "language" of theology (the technical terms used in theology do not always reflect common usage) so the reader can interpret and categorize the contents of the writings.
A) Contrary to popular or common opinion in the typical church pew, the study of theology and doctrines handed down throughout the church age are not just important, but critical in understanding, from the Apostles forward, God's Word and orthodox Christian positions. No individual reads and processes the Word of God apart from a theological vantage point. That vantage point may shift as the scholar "informs" his or her theology with further study, revelation, and thought on various positions, but it is always in existence. B) Honesty in the study of theology is critical. An "a priori" (before the fact) view of any given doctrine or theology may lead into wrong or even heretical statements as one interpretation leads to another, and the cascading effect finally informs the overall doctrine of the believer or church. There is no "Christian" theology that remains distinct from Scriptural "grounding" (though some theologians operate purely in the realm of "natural theology" and do not regard the Scriptures at all, caveat emptor) as the Christian Scriptures are the specific revelation from God that inform any and all doctrinal or theological study. Let the Text direct and inform the theology, not the theology search for proof in the text.C) Part and parcel of theological study involves the study of diverse and variant disciplines to gain a proper vantage point for a truthful scripturally-informed theology. That means wading through the good, the bad, and the ugly in theological works to discern where certain avenues have ultimately lead to heresy, blasphemy, and discord in God's church. A general rule of thumb that the scholarly theologian ought keep in mind is "eat the meat and spit out the bones." Virtually no work of theology is utterly wrong in every word written, though that potential exists. The contrast of various theological positions is helpful to understand the range of potential positions and to see how those various positions fit within the text of Scripture.
Edit: Formatting changes and this addition...
The work described above can be performed by any reasonable person with an education to the level of reading comprehension. But to in fact do the work listed above will probably take someone disciplined in scholarship, which is why it is not often done by rank and file members of any given church.
"Read the Bible" and "go by the Bible only" are great sentiments, except that they are never true. There is always some interpretation of what is read. It is that interpretation that requires the level of scholarship to first, know that it occurs, and second, to understand what occurs when it occurs. -
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This lady in the Spurgeon illustration is not one of average spiritual maturity nor does she have average theological intellect.
She may indeed have made average or less graces in school. She may indeed have an average career or less. But her passion of God indicates that she is WAY above the average church goer in spiritual maturity and theological acumen.
Think about the AVERAGE church goer today. Adrian Rogers was thinking about that very thing when he said that he estimated that 75% of Southern Baptist were not even saved. I don't think I would agree with Brother Rogers on that, but it does speak to the spiritual maturity of the AVERAGE church goer.
I am not saying a person of average ability cannot grasp the doctrines of grace.
I am saying that a person with average spiritual acumen by today's culture's standards will never get it.
This does not lift me up. I, myself, am a man with average ability. It is a blow against this culture and a mark for the rich depth of Calvinism. -
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You take what my posts make you FEEL and respond to that rather than what my posts actually say.
It seems it is necessary for me to fill my posts with tons of fluff for some to be able to emotionally handle what I am saying.
I cannot just say it. I have to pad it with tons of platitudes in order to avoid stirring ridiculous emotional responses.
Rather than saying, "The average church goer today lacks the spiritual maturity to get Calvinism," I have to say, "The average church goer, who is not represented on baptistboard because baptist board is full of brilliant spiritually mature people, but the average church goer is one who attends service half of the time or less and rarely reads his bible and displays very little appetite for truth; this average church goer, who is not most of you guys, who is not deficient because of his lack of education, and not deficient because he is inferior to other people, but is deficient because he lacks a passion to study the Word of God to find the TRUTH of it rather than just proof text what they already want to believe-
this average church goer cannot get Calvinism, not because Calvinism requires a seminary degree to grasp, because it doesn't, and not because Calvinism requires an above average intellectual ability, because it doesn't, but because Calvinism, like all great soteriologies requires much study and contemplation and willingness to change if the truth of it is proven by hard study- these are characteristics which the average church goer does not possess."
That is how I have to talk to some on here. I have to add WAY too many details and fluff to keep from setting you off.
I OBVIOUSLY was not saying that one cannot grasp enough of the Gospel to be saved without possessing a powerful theological understanding.
To see what I was saying read the above statement.
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