You show me in scripture how your statement can be backed up. I want to see how God not being able to change His mind is only regarding His nature.
Ante up.
Does God Change His Mind?!
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Marcia, May 13, 2006.
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Doulous
I was not comenting on the subject, just the argument itself.
Saying somebody can not do something is different then saying they will not do something.
Sorry for the confusion. I have not made up my mind yet on where I stand but I tend to think that God does not change his mind. If he did then the original course of action was not the perfict action. Or He did not have all the information he needed to make the choice. This can not be the case. -
DeeJay,
No confusion. You said (and I quote):
And...no need to apologize. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If God changes his mind, then He creates a new future reality. Furthermore, since God is active and working within His creation, he can bring His plans to fruition and keep any promises/covenants He has made.
If you understand the nature of time as an unbroken linear series of events and choices to which we are all fated (yet God is making us march through it anyway), then you’re being consistent. If you do not perfectly understand the nature of time (which I think is every human on and orbiting the earth), then you can’t make that assertion.
Jesus clearly taught that God is influenced in prayer (Matthew 7:8-10, Luke 18:1-7).
I have to go with Jesus on this one.
I’m not trying to be harsh, because your view of God is very popular and is taught in seminaries, from pulpits and in popular books throughout the world. Unfortunately, it is a theological model of God that does not take into account the plain teaching of scripture. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I certainly don’t believe that. Who has claimed that God has ever been confused? Regarding frustration, I think an argument can be made from the OT prophets that God is been frustrated with His people, but I wouldn’t extend that to the idea that God’s plans are frustrated. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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If God, or for that matter, anyone, changes his mind, is there any other motive for the change of mind other than confusion or frustration?
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Amen, Baptist Believer!
Well said!! -
J.D.,
yes, there can be other motives.
I can say I am going to mow the grass today, but then decide I will wait until tomorrow.
God can change His mind for reasons other than frustration or confusion.
We know God was certainly frustrated in the story of the Flood account, for He said, 'My spirit will not always strive with man... man's days will be 120 years.' -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by J.D.:
If God, or for that matter, anyone, changes his mind, is there any other motive for the change of mind other than confusion or frustration?Click to expand... -
I don't think God is frustrated, but I sure am. I don't know how rippon and calvi and doulous and whatever etc etc can have the patience to keep mixing it up with you guys every day.
If God is changing His mind, then assurance and security of salvation is a big lie. You have nothing on which to trust but God's word, His promises. If God changed his mind about pre-flood humanity, what is there to say he won't change his mind about [B}US[/B]???
Don't you see the implication of what you're saying? If God KNOWS the future, it can not change, else he would not know it. And if God has not DETERMINED the future, then who or what did? Man? Chance?
Does the thought that even a little bit of calvinist teaching may be correct scare you guys so much that you're willing to run head-long into patently false doctrine - open theism, pelagianism, denial of original sin?
Amazing. -
Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
If God changes his mind, then He creates a new future reality. Furthermore, since God is active and working within His creation, he can bring His plans to fruition and keep any promises/covenants He has made.Click to expand...
Perhaps there were many options before God (neither one of us has God’s perspective!) and the act of Hezekiah asking moved God with compassion to select a different option.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Think of all the things God had planned that were changed with Hezekiah getting 15 more years (like Hezekiah's wicked son)!Click to expand...
</font>[/QUOTE]I know, because God knows the future! It's only if he doesn't that he would be surprised by "change." But those who say God changes his mind beg the question of why he does so, and the only logical responses are that 1) God does not know the future; 2) God did not have a perfect plan from eternity (i.e., makes mistakes)
The scripture teaches that God’s nature and character does not change, but clearly teaches that God is moved with compassion.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God is not influenced by us.Click to expand...
Jesus clearly taught that God is influenced in prayer (Matthew 7:8-10, Luke 18:1-7).
I have to go with Jesus on this one.Click to expand...
I’m not trying to be harsh, because your view of God is very popular and is taught in seminaries, from pulpits and in popular books throughout the world. Unfortunately, it is a theological model of God that does not take into account the plain teaching of scripture.Click to expand... -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Calvibaptist:
OK, follow the logic here.Click to expand...
1. God is perfect in all of His attributes. There is no aspect of God that is in any way inadequate.Click to expand...
2. God lacks absolutely nothing. He needs nothing. He forgets nothing. He misses nothing. He is surprised by nothing.Click to expand...
Jeremiah 32:35 "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters [a] to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin."
3. God is omniscient…Click to expand...
I realize this is a major sticking point, so please provide scripture to back up your assertion that God knows the future with complete clarity (distinguished, of course, from areas where He is acting and will act to influence or cause future events).
…He knows the future completely because He wrote it (He declares the end from the beginning).Click to expand...
Isaiah 46:9-10
9 "Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';Click to expand...
A. There is no one like God (v.9)
B. God has told His people what He intends to do (v. 10a-b)
C. God will accomplish all that He intends for His purpose and pleasure (v. 10c-d)
Therefore, this verse can’t be legitimately used to say that all things are fixed, but rather, it teaches that God will make sure that He will fulfill everything that He has declared according to His purpose and pleasure.
Your assertion that God “knows the future completely because He wrote it” is still unsupported by scripture.
4. Therefore, God knows every action that every human being is going to take. He knows every decision that every human being is going to make. He does not lack knowledge in any area.Click to expand...
5. IF God changes His mind about anything, it necessitates that He did not know something.Click to expand...
If God says, "I am going to destroy this people," and Moses prays and the Bible says that God repented of His pronouncement to destroy the people, this CANNOT mean that God didn't know that Moses was going to pray that way.Click to expand...
It CANNOT mean that God is about to do something that He hadn't already planned to do.Click to expand...
God is not good on the fly.Click to expand...
God is perfect for eternity. He does not need to change His mind because there is no defect in Him at all (including His knowledge).Click to expand...
6. This is the orthodox position and has been for 2000 years.Click to expand...
To suggest that God changes His mind because He doesn't know the decisions that man will make is to suggest that God is less than perfect and complete.Click to expand...
Look at what the Baptists said about this in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith:
"God is all-sufficient, and all life, glory, goodness and blessedness are found in Him and in Him alone. He does not stand in need of any of the creatures that He has made, nor does He derive any part of His glory from them. On the contrary, He manifests His own glory in and by them. He is the fountain-head of all being, and the origin, channel and end of all things. Over all His creatures He is sovereign. He uses them as He pleases, and does for them or to them all that He wills. His sight penetrates to the heart of all things. His knowledge is infinite and infallible. No single thing is to Him at risk or uncertain, for He is not dependent upon created things. In all His decisions, doings and demands He is most holy. Angels and men owe to Him as their creator all worship, service and obedience, and whatever else He may require at their hands."Click to expand...
Now, while church councils and statements of faith are not infallible…Click to expand...
…it is unwise (at best) to go against what a majority of the church has held to for thousands of years just so you can cling to the freedom of man's will.Click to expand...
And frankly, in terms of intellectual religiosity, it is a bit embarrassing to have a God who would actually condescend to loving humankind, and being executed as a demonstration of that love, and rising again in a physical, although glorified, body, and then ascending bodily into the heavens where He is seated at the right hand of the Father. It would be much more intellectually attractive for me to believe that God was some sort of impersonal force that pulls us along inescapably into a final predestined condition of joy or destruction. At least I could rationalize at sorts of things and not have to live by faith in the Person of Christ, radically transforming my daily life to follow Him in interactive discipleship. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by J.D.:
I don't think God is frustrated, but I sure am. I don't know how rippon and calvi and doulous and whatever etc etc can have the patience to keep mixing it up with you guys every day.Click to expand...
If God is changing His mind, then assurance and security of salvation is a big lie.Click to expand...
You have nothing on which to trust but God's word, His promises.Click to expand...
If God changed his mind about pre-flood humanity, what is there to say he won't change his mind about [B}USClick to expand...??? [/b]Click to expand...
Don't you see the implication of what you're saying? If God KNOWS the future, it can not change, else he would not know it.Click to expand...
And if God has not DETERMINED the future, then who or what did?Click to expand...
[Who or what determines the future] Man?Click to expand...
Chance?Click to expand...
Does the thought that even a little bit of calvinist teaching may be correct scare you guys…Click to expand...
…so much that you're willing to run head-long into patently false doctrine - open theism, pelagianism, denial of original sin?Click to expand...
Amazing.Click to expand... -
Posted by BaptistBeliever
Yes. Omniscient = “all-knowing.” God knows everything there is to know. The future actions of creatures who have a large measure of freedom might not be knowable in complete terms. Certainly all of the possibilities are knowable for God.Click to expand... -
I am convinced that Marcia’s assertion that we don’t influence God to be a crippling influence on the church today.Click to expand...
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Wow, heresy right in front of our noses, right out in the open in front of everybody.
I'm glad the real God doesn't have to figure things out as He goes along. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
If God changes his mind, then He creates a new future reality. Furthermore, since God is active and working within His creation, he can bring His plans to fruition and keep any promises/covenants He has made.
Click to expand...
For what it is worth, my term “future reality” is not a very good descriptor. Perhaps a better way to say it would be “future timeline”.
That God did not plan right or that things happened to change his mind that he did not know about in advance?Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Perhaps there were many options before God (neither one of us has God’s perspective!) and the act of Hezekiah asking moved God with compassion to select a different option.Click to expand...
He would only need options if his plans were not perfect or if he was surprised by something.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Think of all the things God had planned that were changed with Hezekiah getting 15 more years (like Hezekiah's wicked son)!Click to expand...
</font>[/QUOTE]I know, because God knows the future! </font>[/QUOTE]Again, you’re assuming a certain simplistic theory of the nature of time. God knows what He will do in the future and can make promises based on that, and God is also at work in the present and guides the overall sweep of human history. I cannot say with assurance that God does or God does not know the future in complete detail because I have found no solid scriptural basis for either assertion.
It's only if he doesn't that he would be surprised by "change." But those who say God changes his mind beg the question of why he does so, and the only logical responses are that 1) God does not know the future; 2) God did not have a perfect plan from eternity (i.e., makes mistakes)Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The scripture teaches that God’s nature and character does not change, but clearly teaches that God is moved with compassion.Click to expand...
Jesus lived in time and was moved by compassion, yet did not give up His divine nature or authority. Furthermore, there is the possibility that God exists within time (he certainly speaks to me – a person trapped in time) as well as outside of time.
Moreover, what exactly is the nature of time? If we knew, it would settle this conversation very quickly.
If time is merely a sequence of events and nothing more, then God is certainly within time.
This means he did not know that x was going to happen to move him to compassion, so he changed his plans accordingly,Click to expand...
… or that he planned wrongly and had to re-adjust his plans according to being moved by compassion.Click to expand...
God being unchanging does not make him a force or a machine because he is outside of time.Click to expand...
He does not act from moment to moment but his acts, plans, compassion, mind, wrath on sin, etc. are all one together in concert from eternity, never conflicting, never abating according to what man does.Click to expand...
This is part of the mystery of God and why we can't comprehend a Being who does not have to act in time, from moment to moment. Otherwise, we have a God in time who cannot know the future perfectly (which is what some Open Theist posit).Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God is not influenced by us.Click to expand...
For God to react means he is not perfect because any change means growth towards something better or worse, and that means that there is something lacking at some point.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Jesus clearly taught that God is influenced in prayer (Matthew 7:8-10, Luke 18:1-7).
I have to go with Jesus on this one.Click to expand...
But as soon as we say he changes in response to prayer we have to say, "What does that imply?"Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I’m not trying to be harsh, because your view of God is very popular and is taught in seminaries, from pulpits and in popular books throughout the world. Unfortunately, it is a theological model of God that does not take into account the plain teaching of scripture.Click to expand...
I have quite a bit of sympathy toward the open theist viewpoint, but I don’t consider myself an open theist. And speaking of open theism, I have yet to see a critique of open theism that really deals with the issues and scripture. Usually the critique falls along the lines strawman arguments and emotional attacks on the so-called “diminished God” of open-theism.
I find the views of Dallas Willard in his book, “Divine Conspiracy”, to be helpful on these issues. It is definitely much needed book on the Kingdom of God for this age.
My main objection to the open theism discussion is that I do not understand the nature of time, and knowledge of the true nature of time will likely settle the question. Furthermore, I am uncomfortable with some of the more radical ideas that God has no inkling of the future.
I believe there is a great mystery there that I am not in a position to solve at this time.
Therefore, I assert that God is influenced by humanity – since Jesus clearly teaches it and the rest of the scripture also supports it, and we have a measure of free will which we exercise in the context of God’s permissive will, that is all flowing in time toward a day when faith will be sight and the children of God will be unveiled in the full glory of the new heavens and new earth. In the meantime, God is somehow working all things together for the good of those who have entered into the Kingdom of God, and will continue to be faithful to His people until the Son is revealed in glory.
[ May 15, 2006, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ] -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Posted by BaptistBeliever
Yes. Omniscient = "all-knowing." God knows everything there is to know. The future actions of creatures who have a large measure of freedom might not be knowable in complete terms. Certainly all of the possibilities are knowable for God.
Click to expand...
I'm pointing out the true meaning of the word "omniscient" and speculating on the nature of future knowledge. I don't know how much of the future is knowable. I believe a significant part of it can be.
And yes, some open theists would express this viewpoint.
The problem here is that the discussion has been divided into Calvinism and Arminianism, while those of us who reject both extremes, yet try to take the scripture seriously find that other people want to put a label on us and put us into a category.
As I said in a previous post, I have some affinity for open theist thinking, but I also have some reservations.
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