OK, great observations, but this still does not prove which style is right or wrong, or which are conducive to sensuality. As Scott showed, self can get in the way with hymns as well.
Those aren't "styles" as we refer them today. Many of the hymns we sing today are "paeans". Some may even be considered "dithyrambs". (Many certainly sound like "lamentations" the way some churches play them! :eek: ) "Spiritual", while not refering to "any kind", it can encompass various styles and categories.
What do you mean "wild and uninhibited"? Because it is not some marching rhythm, or something that leads you to sit there stiffly and almost emotionless? While harder forms of rock I would agree are wild and uninhibited, most so-called "rock" is very orderly, as is most jazz. Classic jazz shares a lot in common with classical (Beethoven symphonies, etc), and differs maainly in harmony and bass.
Domino Effect not just in the Power Grid
Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Dr. Bob, Aug 15, 2003.
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I'm not ignoring you Aaron, I haven't had much time lately to reply. I'll see if I can scrape together a few minutes tomorrow.
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(forgot to add: if people are acting wild and uninhibited to it, it is once again, impure to the impure)
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But the true sense of the verse is quite the opposite. We are to esteem marriage as precious and maintain the undefiled state of the marriage bed. It cannot be taken to mean that lewdness between a married couple is now sanctified by the state of marriage.
No doubt this is shocking to a lot of people these days who've grown up immersed in worldly thinking about sex and marriage. But as I said before, God did not give any man a woman to consume upon his lusts. He gave the woman to the man for the sake of His Kingdom.
Part of the problem is that many people are thinking with a carnal mind, not understanding that the spiritual mind finds a holy and temperate act full of love and joy and pleasure. The spiritual mind finds it's fulfillment in doing God's will. I cited this verse last time, but I think it needs to be repeated:
It is meat and drink for me to do the will of him who sent me until I have finished his work. John 4:34.
Christ found satisfaction and fulfillment in doing God's will.
The carnal mind is at enmity with God, therefore it cannot find even simple pleasure to be satisfactory unless it is embellished with a host of sensual delights. The "bumping and grinding" terminology which you so loosely tossed about in a previous post is a profane term despite your insistance to the contrary. It describes a hard act, the end of which is only to feed one's lust more than modesty can do.
You can't understand the comfort I feel. The world looked a Jesus and saw a man despised, smitten of God and afflicted. Yet Christ said He gives us His peace and His joy. It doesn't look like peace and joy to the world, because it is not peace and joy as the world gives. The peace and joy you are describing is worldly. It is that springs from calling all kinds of evil from making close friendships with pagans to sensuality in worship to inordinate affection in the marriage bed, good. "It's all good now because I'm a Christian and I'm married!"
No doubt there are some who want to argue with this view, but let's get back on track with the discussion of music. -
By a logical extension, if we cannot do anything without sinning, then it is impossible for us to please God, since we are in constant states of sinning. Sleeping? We're sinning. Eating? We're sinning. Worship? We're sinning. Loving God? We're sinning.
In fact, by your definition, it is impossible for anyone to continue being saved, according to Hebrews 10:26!
Again, you're missing true joy with this view. And let's not pretend that the joy that I am talking about is some earthly joy - indeed, it is given from the Father, when I realize that I have been liberated from bondage, when I can worship with hands raised praising my Saviour and my God! There is much more to life than mourning - there is a time for that and a time to dance. As for me, Christ has turned my mourning into dancing!
I may also add that it is sad (as I've said before) that you don't want to make friends with non-Christian believers. I am thankful that I have had friends who were not saved - through witnessing and through the conviction of the HOly Spirit, they are not my friends who are saved. Had I shunned them away, I do not know if they would have ever decided to follow Christ. We had a seventh-grader who was saved, because a Christian friend of hers reached out to her when she was hurting.
Of course, if you're sinning by making Christian friends, and you're sinning by making non-Christian friends - what difference does it make? -
Here's another passage about the role on sin in the believer:
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free...."I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:32-36 [NIV]
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life has set me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1 -
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If you want to discuss the issue of your sinlessness further, I'll be happy to indulge you in another forum. But here, we'll get back to the issue of music.
The discussion of the nature of sin in a believer was a natural outgrowth of this discussion of music and its nature. Generally speaking, there are fundamental doctrinal differences between the CCM camp and others, differences even in the view of man, good, evil and God's redemptive plan.
As Dr. Bob said in the very first post of this thread:
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Do we always sin, even when we worship? God forbid!
There are no real doctrinal issues between the CCM camp and others. The doctrinal issues are between those who are combatitive towards CCM music and everyone else. I believe that the Bible - the whole of it - is squarely on my side. God desires to have His children worship Him. God saves us from our sin, setting us free from the law of sin and death. It is because of this that we can rejoice in the death and resurrection of Christ. -
And no "doctrinal issues"? That is patently absurd. The biggest problem I have with 95% of CCM and 50% of other so-called Christian music is purely doctrinal.
Or lack or misuse thereof. -
And no "doctrinal issues"? That is patently absurd. The biggest problem I have with 95% of CCM and 50% of other so-called Christian music is purely doctrinal.
Or lack or misuse thereof. </font>[/QUOTE]I assure you, those who worship using praise and worship music truly know what it is like to be alive in Christ! I've been to WAY too many churches who look quite dead when singing hymns. There is no joy in their faces, and merely rote singing. They've missed what it means to be alive in Christ! -
I have been busy as of late and haven't had the time to offer a response, so let's get this in now as quickly and coherently as I can. I am not responsible for miscommunication or Freudian slips
How can music be sober or drunken?
But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural (or sensual), demonic.
How can something external to the man be selfish, arrogant or lie against the truth? James is explicitly telling us that this sensual wisdom is in our hearts. It's not some vague, ambiguous sentiment that exists independant of the man.It is not even something that needs to be expressed or communicated.It is the man himself who is sensual or spiritual, period.
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Note: To save time in typing, the bold print will signify Travelsong's statements. The light print are mine.
Let's start with riotous. Can music be a riotous thought, feeling or act independant of a communicator?
Well, of course not. Music doesn't exist where there is no listener.
In other words, I might say "That music sounds riotous", but what does that mean exactly? Am I saying that the music is of itself a state of rebellion?
Absolutely
How is such a thing possible?
The rock beat rebels against the melody and the natural rhythms of the words. Igor Stravinsky wrote a horrible, dissonant piece of trash in The Rite of Spring. Music which creates tension and leaves it unresolved is like a troublemaker.
Now, I'm short of time today. Headed to Garden City for choir practice. You have a long post, please give me time to respond. -
TS: Let's start with riotous. Can music be a riotous thought, feeling or act independant of a communicator?
AARON Well, of course not. Music doesn't exist where there is no listener.
TS:I press play on my stereo and walk out of the room. Bingo, music without a listener. I also have a music program for my pc that I can set to randomly generate a rhythm and melody.
TS:In other words, I might say "That music sounds riotous", but what does that mean exactly? Am I saying that the music is of itself a state of rebellion?
AARON:Absolutely
TS:A state of rebellion requires intent. Music cannot have intent, only the performer has intent.
AARON:The rock beat rebels against the melody and the natural rhythms of the words. Igor Stravinsky wrote a horrible, dissonant piece of trash in The Rite of Spring. Music which creates tension and leaves it unresolved is like a troublemaker.
TS:How does a rock beat rebel against the melody or rhythm of the words? What principle from Scripture are you drawing this conclusion from? I couldn't disagree with you more. Consider Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick blues" which likely spawned more slogans than any other rock song in history. The cadence and rhythm of the music are perfect:
Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It's somethin' you did
God knows when
But you're doin' it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin' for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten
Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin' that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone's tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the D. A.
Look out kid
Don't matter what you did
Walk on your tip toes
Don't try "No Doz"
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don't need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows
Get sick, get well
Hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell
If anything is goin' to sell
Try hard, get barred
Get back, write braille
Get jailed, jump bail
Join the army, if you fail
Look out kid
You're gonna get hit
But users, cheaters
Six-time losers
Hang around the theaters
Girl by the whirlpool
Lookin' for a new fool
Don't follow leaders
Watch the parkin' meters
Ah get born, keep warm
Short pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Don't steal, don't lift
Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Don't wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Don't wanna be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump don't work
'Cause the vandals took the handles
What about music that only offers tension without release is sinful? So you dislike "The Rite of Spring" because it is dissonant, and generally sounds awful. What exactly do you infer by listening to it that it is sinful?
AARON: Now, I'm short of time today. Headed to Garden City for choir practice. You have a long post, please give me time to respond.
TS: Don't feel rushed, life is far more important than message boards.
[ September 29, 2003, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Travelsong ] -
Reply forthcoming. ;)
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Refutation to follow. ;)
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And no "doctrinal issues"? That is patently absurd. The biggest problem I have with 95% of CCM and 50% of other so-called Christian music is purely doctrinal.
Or lack or misuse thereof. </font>[/QUOTE]I assure you, those who worship using praise and worship music truly know what it is like to be alive in Christ! I've been to WAY too many churches who look quite dead when singing hymns. There is no joy in their faces, and merely rote singing. They've missed what it means to be alive in Christ! </font>[/QUOTE]The answer is not change the style,make the worship more upbeat...that just superficially covers up the problem. The problem is the heart of the people...if they are not truly worshipping then that is a heart problem...A new shallow upbeat song may *seem* to help the problem,but the heart is STILL the problem....too many churches seem to not want to really deal with the heart. Making the style more *pleasing* is much easier.
Molly
Molly -
"IF I am inundated (car, work, home) with Country Western music, it will NOT "make me" dip Skoal, buy a pickup, divorce my wife and put on cowboy boots.
But it will affect my mind, my spirit, my thinking, my whole way of life. IF I have given thought to any (of the above), it will seem to be the "norm" or normal thing to do."
So if a guy does dip Skoal, drives a pickup, wears cowboy boots and has divorced his wife does that make him me likely to listen to country music?
No I know where you are going but do disagree with labeling a whole style of music or type, all together. In every sector of music you will find good and bad.
I listen to music which I find comforting or interesting. I listen more for the lyrical content than for the rythm of the song. If you listen to the lyrics to some "country" songs you will find some very insperational and yes scriptual music. Not saying all of it is good, saying that you as an individual must discern the words and yes to some point the intent of the song. -
Until you concede this point, there's no need to go on with this discussion. -
How do you know when your cat is hungry?
How do you know when your cat wants to go outside?
How does your cat know when you are angry?
How does your cat know when you are willing to be affectionate?
Apply these and many other examples of communication to the entire animal kingdom. It doesn't matter that a particular growl is a universal symbol of aggression in tigers, a growl is not agression, or anger or anything of the sort all by itself, it is only a symbol, a representation, or an indicator of intent.
On the limited scope that humans and animals can communicate, are you saying we have like natures?
In humans, any indicator or symbol or representation of emotion or intent can be reproduced without feeling the emotion or intent. Why? because the emotion is not the symbol itself. Evolution has nothing to do with the discussion. Sin has it's origin in the heart, and nowhere else.
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