Dr. Stanley and Eternal Security

Better get rid of that "source." He does nothing by scripture but line his own pockets! You should be ashamed!

skypair​

 

"Come" means to the earth (not to the heavens alone). In the Olivet Discourse, Acts 1, and elsewhere, His "coming" again is to the Mount of Olives. The rapture is to the clouds in the air" and will be seen by all Christians wherever they are as the lightning from east to west IMO.

Mt 13 - yes, in the scriptures you cite. But where did the "mustard seed"/church disappear to in this whole range of parables?

MT 25:31-46 -- yes, to judge the nations. But why do you leave out 25:1-13? There He comes near the camp but believers/5 wise virgins, GO OUT to meet Him.

John 5:38-39 means there is a "time" ("hour") for everyone to be judged. No, I cannot think of any time when all will come forth at once and neither can you. The rapture and first resurrection is believers only. The second resurrection is unbelievers and is 1000 years later than the first.

Acts 24:15 -- Paul referring to the first and second resurrections, period.

2Thes 1:6-10 -- rapture followed by 7 years later by Christ's return to destroy unbelievers.

Rev 1:7 -- no doubt you've heard of a "televised event." Same thing happens when the 2 witnesses arise.

Rev 20:1-4 -- first resurrection of OT and trib saints -- no "bad guys."

1Cor 15:51-52 -- pretrib and postMK raptures, the former TO Christ in the air and NJ, the latter WITH Christ to NJ.

skypair

 

Oh, stop with your "doctrines of men" already!! Can you really not see anything else like Rev 20 that establishes the "first resurrection" pre-1000 years??? Do you truly not understand the parables in Mt 13:33-50, Mt 22, Mt 25:14-50, etc. to be the resurrection and judgment of believers into His 1000 year kingdom?? How about OT? Psa 50:3-5, Job 14:13-14, 19:25-28, Isa 26:19-21, Mt 24:31, etc.? You're trained in this and still let laymen such as myself "walk circles around you??" :laugh:

What makes you think any WRONG eschatology is any better in God's eyes than Hymenaeous' was??

You got me there. :laugh: So Jesus hasn't already been resurrected?? I teach He sends out His angels at the first resurrection, Mt 24:31.

Like I said, Paul often treats rapture and resurrection the same. The OT saints DEFINITELY (scriptures I quoted above) expected to be resurrected to the earth bodily in the "first resurrection," the "resurrection of the just."

NEVER said that! You must be thinking of someone else.

No, technically it is a RAPTURE to go to heaven.

You are misreading Rev 20:4 there, mate. The souls appear before the throne to receive in their bodies what they have inherited. You appear to believe in "soul sleep." Is that it? No, we have all kinds of scripture (Job 14, 19, Psa 50, etc) telling us that the receive bodies.

Wow! You got yourself all messed up! The first resurrection is NOT after 1000 years in 20:5 --- 20:5 says the preceding is the first resurrection and the second is after 1000 years because 20:6 says those in the second resurrection are subject to the second DEATH!!

IOW, all your resurrection theology can be summed up in Rev 20:4-6 and Rev 20:11 is the "first resurrection" AKA "great white throne." OK, let's see who gets raised there --- "13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." These are ALL UNBELIEVERS, Bob!! They were devoured by the angels and left on/in the earth (20:9) while the BELIEVERS were raptured away with Christ's throne to heaven (20:10). In 20:13-14, the DEAD are called from the sea, graves, even hell -- they were "dead," slain by angels, not saved at the last rapture!!

Precisely nothing. The OT passages I gave you and Mt 13:44-45 (if you understood them :praying: ) would tell you that Rev 20:4 is only the dead trib saints -- both Jew/treasure and Gentile/pearl -- resurrected to their judgment with LIVING Jews/wheat and Gentiles/fish of which Mt 25:14-46 also speaks.

Just curious --- what denom, seminary, man, ??? ... taught you your resurrection doctrine??

skypair

 

Eternally saved and eternal life if you want to call it that are the same thing, although everlasting life is really a better and more accurate of saying it.

Brother Bob why do you keep trying to justify something that you have done that is wrong? If you don't understand something then ask for clarification. But your lack of understanding doesn't give you the right to make false claims (lie) about someone. Right?

Brother you asked me to apologize for your mistake. Sorry I don't think I need to do that and my conscience is perfectly at peace on that. You were the one that continued to make false claims about me. I don't have to apologize for calling you on the carpet for that.
Maybe I should have done so in private instead of on the board, so for that I will apologize. We certainly don't need to air our laundry in front of many others.

As I believe EdSutton has said this doctrine has been "heresy" for a long time and is stll considered as much by some today, so claiming that this doctrine is heresy doesn't do anything to help one's case.

Yes you are correct there are a number of church traditions that are taught in error. One of them happens to be that eternity will be spent in "heaven." There is no Scriptural support for this especially when Scripture tells us that God's throne is going to be on the earth in the midst of His people. So why would you want to go to a place where God Himself is not going to be? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

This is talking about the rapture. There is no evidence that I am aware of that there is one general resurrection and one general judgment.

Why do you keep personally insulting me? You are a liar. You can not prove that I think I don't make mistakes. I have had to eat crow many times and even here on the board I have admitted to mistakes. Why do you keep issuing insults and personal slurs? Do you think it helps your cause?

 

Right back at you. Time will tell.

 

Skypair; you post all those scriptures and cause me to have to look each on up to see if it made any sense and they were all off the mark, and had nothing to do with the thousand year reign. It was just Skypair doctrine all the way.

He is not alone, I don't expect you to agree with anyone who does not fit into your theology.

Hogwash. Don't you believe the words of Jesus Himself, He is the Resurrection and I believe He knows more about than you or me.

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You are adding the thousand years and you give me scripture where anyone will be in the thousand year reign, except "beheaded souls".

That makes about as much sense as falling off a log backwards. Those words are the words of Jesus, you speak heresy.

Where do you find this in the thousand year reign. You just add it as you need it dont' you.

Jesus said they would all come forth at the same hour!

You got your hands full with the junk you post on here. I have said nothing in the past but will be watching in the future for you weird posts.

Do you deny that the Kingdom exists within the believers also?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT NO ONE IS GOING TO............HEAVEN ALSO?

 

J. Jump;

This just proves you called me a liar for nothing.

A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THOUSAND YEAR REIGN YET TO COME EVEN THOUGH IT WAS CONSIDERED HERESY UNTIL 150 YEARS AGO, BUT YOU ARE THE FIRST I FOUND WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE........NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN.

 

I see what you are saying but Jesus said My Kingdom is not of this world, also said, The Kingdom is within you and was referring to the Kingdom the Jew were looking for.

When He shall deliver the Kingdom up to the Father, these three are one, equal in essence and power. Its pretty hard to separate one from the other. I kinda believe that will be the end of His reign here on earth.

Hope of Glory; Do you believe no one is going to ........Heaven as J. Jump believes?

 

Have you been out in the heat too much today Brother Bob? You are a liar because you keep saying things that are untrue about me. You have been apprised of this on more than one occassion and yet you continued in the same line. This is not atypical behavior on your part. It is a pattern. This has been discussed in several threads with you in the past. Each time you keep chalking up your mistakes as misunderstandings, well this time that won't work and because of that it makes me wonder your intentions in the past.

Just own up to your mistakes.

No need to shout. My hearing hasn't gone out yet. By the way this is not even a true statement because you participated in a thread that talked about this in another section of the BB where there were at least two others that would agree with me.

Yes the "church" wouldn't consider it orthodoxy, but there are a number of things that are orthodox according to the "church" that don't line up with Scripture.

Heaven is not the goal of the saved. Again why do you want to spend eternity in a place where God Himself is not going to be? That's doesn't make a lick of sense to me, but to each their own I suppose.

 

Well, perhaps unlike some, at least I slept inside, last night! :rolleyes:

Ed

P.S. Yes, I am a moderator, although not on the BB, nor have I ever remotely claimed such, as regards the BB.

But I would assume I have the right, here, as a member, to post an opinion, especially when it lines up with BB rules, as much as any other member, especially when it is in a debate forum, that is not limited to one or two persons. I seem to recall others doing the same thing, you know, posting.

 

Instead of just calling me a liar, why not post the times please?

Heaven is my goal, and I suspect the vast majority on this board. I feel sorry for you, that you believe you are not going to Heaven. You don't have much to look forward to now do you?

 

I have to ask, being you supported J. Jump several times.

Do you believe no one is going to..........Heaven also?

Post as you like, it is just not a good practice to stick your nose into a disagreement, when someone posted he didn't know why this thread was going on, I said he didn't have to join in. If I knew that it was going to draw you into it, being you was in bed and all, I think I would of left it off.

 

Brother Bob if you don't want to own up to your mistakes that is between you and God. However I'm not going to waste time going back through these pages of threads to once again proved that you have lied about me. I have already done that once for you. Either own up to it or don't, but don't make me go hunting down something you know took place. Just eat crow and be done with it.

I suspect this is a true statement unfortunately for you and all the others.

Well I will be there for a short period of time as the bride of Christ is revealed and the rewards are determined, but I will not be staying there. I don't know why you would feel sorry for me. You are the one that wants to spend an eternity in a place where God Himself said He isn't going to be.

Actually yes I do. I have an eternity to spend with God where God is. You on the other hand want to spend eternity in a place where God will not be and yet you say I don't have much to look forward to hmmmm . . .

But don't worry Brother Bob you won't be left in a heaven devoid of God. He will actually take you with Him despite a flawed theology :). Just don't be surprised when you spend eternity on the earth instead of heaven :).

 

Didn't figure you could produce them!!

Oh, so now you changing your tale and going to Heaven a little while. cya

Wonder why Jesus went upwards and sat down with God, when God is not there.
Wonder why Jesus said I go away to prepare a place for you and will come again to receive you unto myself so where I am, THERE you may be also.

Wonder what Jesus said, in my Father's house are many mansions, already there. I have never seen them if they are on this earth.

Well J.Jump; You can look forward to spending eternity anywhere you want. I look forward to going to Heaven, where God is.

So, you don't believe the saved will live in Heaven? I have to say J. Jump, you got a weird belief there.

I guess God will have to turn out the lights when He leaves Heaven?

 

I made absolutely no accusation, here. And in fact, basically denied that I always right. And what am I supposed to have misread, here?

This is correct, as far as it goes. But again, I brought it up because of the insistence that it must be past tense. You "can" use this in the "past tense" in English, but it is not automatic, as Dr. Robertson (and Keating, also) has pointed out, and both of whom I quoted from. This "when" is necessarily determined by the context, and in fact, the Greek aorist endings, which determine the tense, on "reigned" in Rev. 20:5, are from the future tense, which gives, in effect, a "future aorist", although that is not exactly a technically correct definition. ( See Wigram, Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, A P & A, p. 110. Col B, entry 17; p. xvi, section XIII, rem. 8d; Compare with Thayer's Lexicon, A P& A, p. 98, Col. A, entry 3)

You have repeatedly cited Keating as to the past tense, yet either ignored or dismissed the same person, when he also says -

How is it you have managed to miss this, as I have posted it three times, now?

I'm pretty sure I do understand some things, at least, about "aktionsart", but thanks for posting the help.

Exactly! The "when" has to be determined by the context, of the text. (The "where" is irrelevant to the tense.) That is why I posted the citing from Robertson.

I realize that you are not the one who originated the list, but merely quoted from it. Nor was I attempting to attribute it to you. That does not, in any way, change the fact of what I said about the "crack".

Please don't blame me on J. Jump. He doesn't deserve to have that happen to him. :tonofbricks::laugh:

Ed

 

Why did you bring it up?? I am at a loss here.

Glad to hear you say, it can mean "past tense".

Again, glad that at least I may be right.


You skip around the question with ease.

Do you believe no one is going to Heaven to live for eternity? Please answer the question.

 

Catch a clue Bob. You have repeatedly said I don't claim Christ as my King. And I have repeatedly told you that Christ is in fact my King. Why do you keep up this stupidity? Eat your crow. Be a grown up and admit your mistake. Ask for forgiveness and move on, but cut the kindergarten nonsense.

You know you lied. Now fess up or just admit you aren't going to seek forgiveness. This is nonsense.

Nice try Bob. I have never said ANYWHERE that we will not go to heaven at ALL. We will not spend eternity there.

Because that is where He is NOW.

Right Bob thanks for proving my point THERE means where Jesus is. Please show one passage of Scripture that says Jesus is going to spend eternity in heaven. Just one will suffice.

Again please provide ONE Scripture which says that is where He's going to stay and then please tell me how that corresponds with this text:

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Your view is simply misguided church tradition. God plans to dwell among men not the other way around.

 

Not true!...

Silly! You would be run completely out of the county.

Again Silly! God is with His people.
Haven't you ever prayed to Him?

A man that does not believe that the saved will spend eternity in heaven, will not receive any scripture that is against his theory.

Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

Figures. I'm done with you Bob. If you can't even own up to your own mistakes there is no point in continuing a conversation with you. You know I actually did enjoy visting with you when you were at least sensible, but this childish act of yours is too much for me. Good day.

 

You not only lost the battle, you lost the war when you said we would not live in Heaven for eternity. I feel for you and hope that God will open your eyes to your mistaken beliefs.