Well said! Christians have every right to totally abstain from alcohol. That is an honorable way to live. However, Christians do not have the right to insist that other Christians totally abstain. How can we prohibit what the Bible clearly allows?
All of the arguments which attempt to prove abstinence from the Bible are far less than compelling (the ones that I have read in this thread and everywhere else). Indeed, they often dance around the plain meaning of verses and words and employ fanciful historical theories (as in the case of Norman Geisler's oft-quoted BibSac article where he asserts that wine in biblical times was near non-alcoholic).
Further, nearly all articles, sermons, and popularly-employed arguments insisting on abstinence (as a Bible doctrine) make absolutely no distinction between drunkenness and the consequences of the abuse of alcohol and alcohol itself. (e.g., Jerry Vines and his sermon, The Baptist and His Booze). That is devastating, as the Bible only condemns drunkenness, not alcohol.
Why is the moderate use of alcohol such a debate in American Christian circles? It seems to me to be a petty little distraction from truly important things.
Drinking Alcohol Moderately
Discussion in 'Polls Forum' started by PrivateWoman, Sep 7, 2010.
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Yes
69.2% -
Not Sure/Undecided
3.8% -
Definitely Not
26.9%
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Besides, toxicity is defined by observation and study, not by word root meanings. Better to show a study which indicates that alcohol is toxic if used in moderation. But, not surprisingly, no such study is cited. Instead a fallacy must be resorted to.
Conversely, you ignore the fact that negative references to alcohol are in the context of misuse.
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Alcohol is an instrument that man uses to defile the body. And he that defiles the body God will destroy. -
The Bible teaches clearly that God has given wine to gladden the heart of man. (Ps 104.15). If you hold to a high view of Scripture, how can you ignore this? -
Just one ounce... one ounce affects the thinking process and reflexes.
So much for your theory.
Wine that makes glad the heart of man was non alcoholic. -
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He provided an over abundance of non alcoholic wine, of which some was given to the governor of the festivities. The governor was elated that this, the best wine was saved until last.
This event occurred 3 days after Jesus was baptized by John. -
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As always, your arguments depend on fallacious reasoning. -
What the anti-alcohol crowd never does is build a sound argument from sound hermeneutics. Begging the question and circular reasoning are always involved. Please feel free to make an actual argument and i will demonstrate it.
EDit: And I don't say this dismissively. I say this after long observation. But seriously, if you think you can present a sound argument for the Scriptural prohibition of alcohol, please do so. I would be glad to go over it with you point by point. I teach elementary logic so I have a least a little idea of how to identify a sound argument. -
- How do you know it was non-alcoholic wine? Because Christ wouldn't make alcoholic wine.
- How do you know Christ wouldn't make alcoholic wine? Because Scripture says alcoholic wine is bad.
- What about the times where Scripture speaks positively of wine? Those speaking of non-alcoholic wine.
- How do you know they are speaking of non-alcoholic wine? Because Scripture says alcohol is bad.
- But what of the times it speaks of alcohol in a positive manner? Refer to earlier answer...
And round and round the circular reasoning goes... -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Wine and beer (and even shots of hard liquor) have a much lower concentration of alcohol. Furthermore, if you consume alcoholic beverages with a meal or over time, the actual amount affecting your body at any one time is greatly reduced.
But the real issue is not whether or not it has an effect (a large God-honoring meal at the end of a long day slows me down more than any quantity of alcoholic beverage I have even consumed), but whether there is drunkeness (loss of control).
Seems to me that those who hold your view live and die by a couple of verses from Proverbs, wrested out of their context and genre as wisdom literature. The Proverbs are pithy bits of wisdom, meant to be meditated upon, that are general guides to life. They do not carry the same weight as any of the Ten Commandments or the teachings of Jesus.
In fact, if we read the Proverbs the same way we read other biblical literature, we're going to get ourselves into trouble very quickly since the Proverbs occasionally contradict each other if interpreted as eternal truths. For instance:
Proverbs 26:4–5 (NIV)
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.
The reason this is not really a contradiction is that the reader of these Proverbs is supposed to exercise discernment and decide which way to deal with the "fools" he encounters through life. However if we try to take these Proverbs as woodenly literal commands, we have a big problem. -
BTW, here are some actual studies (vs. Paul Harvey's unsourced and unqualified claims) which indicate that brain cells are not killed by moderate use of alcohol, but, in fact, moderate use of alcohol can have a positive affect on brain operation:
Antilla, Tiia, et al. Alcohol drinking in middle age and subsequent risk of mild cognitive impairment and dementia in old age: a prospective population based study. British Medical Journal, 2004, 329, 538-539.
Bates, M.E., and Tracy, J.I. Cognitive functioning in young "social drinkers": Is there impairment to detect? Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1990, 99, 242-249.
Elias, P.K., et al. Alcohol consumption and cognitive performance in the Framingham Heart Study. American Journal of Epidemiology, 1999, 150(6), 580-589.
Ford, Gene. The Science of Health Drinking. San Francisco, CA: Wine Appreciation Guild, 2004.
Galanis, D. J., et al. A longitudinal study of drinking and cognitive performance in elderly Japanese American men: The Honolulu-Asia Aging Study. American Journal of Public Health, 2000, 90, 1254-1259.
Harrison, P.G. Moderate Drinking Helps Preserve Women's Brains. Reuters Health, June 15, 2001
McDougall, Graham. Older Women's Cognitive and Affective Response to Moderate Drinking. Presented at the meetings of the National Congress on the State of Science in Nursing Research. Washington, D.C., October 7-8,2004; University of Texas at Austin. Moderate drinking in older adult women has positive influence on memory. News release, October 3,2004.
Rodgers, B., et al. Non-linear relationships between cognitive function and alcohol consumption in young, middle-aged and older adults: The PATH Through Life Project. Addiction, 2005, 100(9), 1280-1290
Anstey, K. J., et al. Lower cognitive test scores observed in alcohol are associated with demographic, personality, and biological factors: The PATH Through Life Project. Addiction, 2005, 100(9), 1291-1301.
So much for Steadfast's unfounded and unsupported claims. The claim that moderate use of alcohol kills brain cells, etc. seems to be a myth started by the temperance movement. -
the ABUSE of alcohol ....... -
LOOK NOT upon the wine WHEN IT IS FERMENTED. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Ann....doesnt air eventually kill you? My gosh....your still at it with these people? LOL.... Will it never end. ROFL!!
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