Duggar Family

[Steadfast Fred]

Sorry, I know nothing about the show and the ages of the kids. I assumed the child was small. I'd say 12 or 13 is when they can start understanding the standards. So maybe that is what they are doing now with Joy Anna, I don't know.

So, on that basis, what are you disagreeing with?

At 12 or 13 they are old enough to 'start understanding'? By 12 or 13, (6th or 7th Grade level) children understand a lot.

I knew a 7 that it was wrong to steal. And I also knew why it was wrong to steal. At 11, I knew about, (as many refer it) the birds and the bees, and even got excited around some of my female classmates for that reason... that I did know.

Little Joy Anna, (and apparently all the Duggar children) are being shielded from some things that children their ages already know.

Now, as I said, I am not against shielding children from certain things, or teaching them right from wrong. but we are to train them up in the way they should go. I believe, as I have pointed out, that to teach good morals apart from Jesus Christ is very dangerous. Joy Anna Duggar had no reason why boys are not to look at girls with low-cut dresses, only that they were not to look. What happened to "Because the Word of God says..."?

There is the problem I have with it. It seems the girls are being taught 'this is right,' and 'this is wrong,' but not being taught why.

How much about God and His Word are they learning? There is really no evidence in that video of the "why's". Not even the old girl in the video, nor even the grandmother had the answer why the boys were not to look at immodestly dressed women... they just weren't supposed to look.

Good morals without sound biblical doctrine are dangerous.

 

[John of Japan]

At 12 or 13 they are old enough to 'start understanding'? By 12 or 13, (6th or 7th Grade level) children understand a lot.

I knew a 7 that it was wrong to steal. And I also knew why it was wrong to steal. At 11, I knew about, (as many refer it) the birds and the bees, and even got excited around some of my female classmates for that reason... that I did know.

Little Joy Anna, (and apparently all the Duggar children) are being shielded from some things that children their ages already know.

Now, as I said, I am not against shielding children from certain things, or teaching them right from wrong. but we are to train them up in the way they should go. I believe, as I have pointed out, that to teach good morals apart from Jesus Christ is very dangerous. Joy Anna Duggar had no reason why boys are not to look at girls with low-cut dresses, only that they were not to look. What happened to "Because the Word of God says..."?

There is the problem I have with it. It seems the girls are being taught 'this is right,' and 'this is wrong,' but not being taught why.

How much about God and His Word are they learning? There is really no evidence in that video of the "why's". Not even the old girl in the video, nor even the grandmother had the answer why the boys were not to look at immodestly dressed women... they just weren't supposed to look.

Good morals without sound biblical doctrine are dangerous.

Okay. So I'll ask again. What are you disagreeing with about what I said? Never mind the Duggers for a minute. Do you disagree with what I said in this area about how to raise children?

Here is what I said again:

It does no good to tell the little ones the reasons why. They aren't mentally capable of understanding it yet. You simply let them know the standards. Then when they're old enough to mentally process things, you take them through the reasons, and let them go through the thinking process on their own. Then when they are older still, you let them have their own standards without criticizing them--as long as they have carefully thought things through.

 

[idonthavetimeforthis]

However, everyone's dancing around an "if." IF they are doing this, blah blah blah blah, if they aren't doing that, blah blah blah blah.

How about this...everyone quit worrying about IF they are doing wrong. Why are you focusing on the ifs of a family you don't know?
I'm not getting it. What do you gain? What do they gain? What does anyone gain by sitting around wondering if they're fully expounding this particular point of scripture with their children?

My thoughts exactly! :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

My father was not very religious (but he did believe in God), and almost never spoke of the Bible, but he taught us it was wrong to lie and steal because it hurts other people. And he was far more moral than many people who go to church.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

It does no good to tell the little ones the reasons why. They aren't mentally capable of understanding it yet. You simply let them know the standards. Then when they're old enough to mentally process things, you take them through the reasons, and let them go through the thinking process on their own. Then when they are older still, you let them have their own standards without criticizing them--as long as they have carefully thought things through.

My question, as should be obvious to all, is "How old is old enough?" There are some 9 year old's that know more than some 14 year old's.

Age really has nothing to do with teaching of the truth.

Truth is only limited by the one who will not share it or refuses to hear it.

 

[John of Japan]

My question, as should be obvious to all, is "How old is old enough?" There are some 9 year old's that know more than some 14 year old's.

Age really has nothing to do with teaching of the truth.

Truth is only limited by the one who will not share it or refuses to hear it.

Okay, I'll accept that. But I stand by my statement that the little ones are mentally incapable of understanding most moral positions. Sure, they can understand stealing is wrong, but many other things are beyond their mental capability.

As you say, the age a child can understand such things differs with each child, just like the age of accountability.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

My youngest daughters are 10 & 8. They know A LOT more than I did at their age because we teach them to have a full understanding within the safety of our home. We tell them WHY certain things are right or wrong & what God has to say on every subject. I was raised fundamental baptist & was NEVER told the Scriptural why's. I can tell you from experience that not telling children the underlying truths of life in as early a life as possible is dangerous & destructive.

From my personal experience, parents, pastors & teachers in fundamentalist churches are ill-equipped to teach beyond the most basic understanding of Scripture. The root cause is a lack of trust that children can handle & process the truth & it is a desire for authority in the lives of others. ...because I said so!

Once you empower someone to understand truth on their own, you lose your power to indoctrinate them to your way of thinking.

 

[John of Japan]

From my personal experience, parents, pastors & teachers in fundamentalist churches are ill-equipped to teach beyond the most basic understanding of Scripture. The root cause is a lack of trust that children can handle & process the truth & it is a desire for authority in the lives of others. ...because I said so!

I really don't think this problem is limited to fundamentalist churches. Any parent from any Christian tradition can fall into this trap. I deal all the time with Japanese believers from various groups who have lost their kids to the world. I have a good lady in my church who came to us from a non-fundamentalist Nazarene church whose kids all quit church when they grew up. One is a doctor, one is a lawyer, etc., but none love the Lord. Again, her husband grew up in a non-fundamentalist Christian church and was baptized and the whole nine yards, but abandoned church and now believes in nothing.

Many fundamentalists have had the same experience, but many others have seen their grown kids follow the Lord. Among the fundamentalist churches that support us here in Japan, I can think of two right off the bat where the sons have followed their fathers as pastors of the church. That's a blessing! Those parents did something right! In our own case, our only child grew up to go to Christian college and seminary, and plans to teach in a fundamentalist college. We thank God for His grace and wisdom in child-rearing.

Folks, this is a good thread. It should force us to work ever so hard to raise our kids for the Lord, so we don't lose them to the world. It has nothing to do with some specifically fundamentalist method of child-rearing, and everything to do with teaching them to honor God. My favorite verse on this is about Abraham, who purposefully raised his children to serve God: "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" (Gen. 18:19).

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You are correct, John. The problem is not limited to fundamental churches. It infiltrates many denominations and many faiths.

The long and short of it is that we must train up children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Teaching them that such and such is right or wrong, not because I said so, but because God's Word says so.

One who is not trained up using Scripture as a foundation will be harder to win to the Lord because that one will see himself as good and moral. "I've done no wrong" will be their general response.

There are many in this world who have good morals but will die without Christ because they were taught good morals apart from Christ and believe their works are good enough.

 

[rbell]

Priesthood of the believer, baby.

Sure does free me up to not worry about what the Duggar's are doing...

 

[Amy.G]

Priesthood of the believer, baby.

Sure does free me up to not worry about what the Duggar's are doing...

1 Timothy 5:13 And at the same time they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but gossips also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

 

[Jerome]

[The Duggars] not spreading the message of the Gospel?

Just call me Captain Obvious because I'm gonna have to point out that they're on NATIONAL TELEVISION

They're speading something alright, but is it the Gospel?:

In the 21 minutes it took the show to play (the DVD has no commercials like TLC does) there was no witnessing of Christ other than a brief mention of His name in the song I mentioned above.

In the second episode, there was no mention of Christ at all. It really makes me wonder if such reality shows are for self-gratification or what? And I do agree with Amy G. that I have a problem with the cameras constantly in the childrens faces.

Realize that they have no control over how the show is edited. Trust me - there is a lot of editing. My husband was in the audio industry before becoming a pastor and in a show like that, there was probably 10+ hours of filming that had to be cut to 21 minutes. Guess what they tend to cut out?

 

[Gina B]

Isn't it Jerome? I don't know anyone who isn't aware that these people claim Christ.

Everyone on this board knows that. They may ignorantly and without full knowledge be questioning it in vain (because nobody arguing it seems intent on fixing it) but they know that.

Again, gotta be obvious. They state the very reason for the existence of their large family comes from their concept of obeying Christ.

But enough about them. Let's talk about you. How are you doing in your spiritual life? What areas are you weak in and how have you failed to live up to my expectations of Christianity lately?

 

[webdog]

As with any family in America, I'm sure there are positives and negatives in how they are raising their family. I know they are part of the quiverfull movement where it is implied the more children you have, the more godly and obedient you are.

The children are well mannered and well taken care of financially. The father and mother seem like sincere, good parents wanting the best for their children. Unfortunately, the number game plays into this. When you have a sign up sheet on your refrigerator where you can have an hour of one on one time blocked off each week to spend with either mom or dad, that's a problem, not to mention the almost playoff seeding format in having the older children take care of the younger ones (not assist the parents...they are "in charge"). Also, the fact the family "is" their church raises red flags, and that they have turned their children into actors.

God has given us the ability to reason and use common sense. He has given us knowledge in regards to reproduction. We KNOW that when a man has relations with a woman on certain days during the woman's cycle, barring any problems, the woman will get pregnant. This is God's design. If you have s*x during that time, God has designed you will get pregnant. Having relations during this time is not trusting God for the size of your family, it is testing Him. It's like walking across a freeway during rush hour and telling God "if you don't want me to get hit by a car, I won't...I'm trusting you".

Using birth control does not trump God's sovereignty. If He wanted you to have a child, no manner of birth control will prevent it. To plan every aspect of our lives but this one is irresponsible, IMO, particularly if the children's needs cannot be met (financial, physical AND emotional).

 

[Jerome]

I just watched another video.

When the interviewer asked what motived them, the husband said:

It was faith based.

And the wife added:

It's faith, it's a faith decision it's about family it's about working together and overcoming our faults and raising beautiful children and having a happy family and, I mean at least that's the way we interpret it and many of our friends interpret it in the same way.

Thoughts?

 

[webdog]

My thoughts are it does not take faith to know what will happen when you have relations with your wife when she is fertile

 

[annsni]

My thoughts are it does not take faith to know what will happen when you have relations with your wife when she is fertile

Well, it's a CHANCE - not a guarantee. Trust me. I've gone through lots of fertility treatments and even with everything perfect and all the ingredients there, I didn't get pregnant.

 

[webdog]

Well, it's a CHANCE - not a guarantee. Trust me. I've gone through lots of fertility treatments and even with everything perfect and all the ingredients there, I didn't get pregnant.

That's why I qualified my first post with "barring any problems". Based on the Duggars' fertility, I don't foresee any problems there

Therefore, when they engage in the "act" during that period of time each month, it's pretty much a given and not a chance as it has been for the past 20 years.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I just watched another video.

When the interviewer asked what motived them, the husband said:



And the wife added:



Thoughts?

Where's the witness of Christ? Faith based? About family...?

It appears the faith is in the family system.

Sure, as Ann said, much is edited out. But it doesn't appear that they are witnessing Christ to their nationwide viewers. Only their immense family.

They may say something in a program or two about church or Christ, I don't know. But if one watches any of their programs where Christ is not witnessed, and doesn't see any where Christ is witnessed, guess what? to that one, the Duggar family is nothing more than a large family that is traveling the states, jumping out of airplanes, and doing other activities. A good family is all that person sees or knows.

 

[annsni]

That's why I qualified my first post with "barring any problems". Based on the Duggars' fertility, I don't foresee any problems there

Therefore, when they engage in the "act" during that period of time each month, it's pretty much a given and not a chance as it has been for the past 20 years.

Oh, see, I was SUPER fertile at that time and the timing was perfect and all tests showed perfect. We had all the ingredients at the perfect time. But no baby. So even doing everything perfect AND being highly fertile, it doesn't always mean a baby.