Craig, is the author of this book clearly revealing the plurality of gods in the LDS faith? Does he acknowledge that Mormon prophets and leaders have taught and continue to teach that God was once a man, that Adam was a god, that Christianity was corrupt and the Mormon church was established to "restore" the true faith? Are these core LDS doctrines pointed out clearly as part of the LDS faith?
Does the author say the LDS faith is not the true faith? Does he admit that Christianity is the true faith (f he does not, he is endorsing Mormonism)? That LDS beliefs are inconsistent with the Bible and with historic Christian doctrine (if he does not, he is endorsing Mormonism)?
Please show how James White is wrong in his assessement of these points. How is he making "false" statements? Now you are accusing a brother in Christ and you better back it up good.
Eerdman's Publishes Mormon Book
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Marcia, May 2, 2005.
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Marcia wrote,
When those who reply to my posts cannot understand what I have written, I cannot help but wonder who else and what else they cannot understand.
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Marcia wrote,
I am posting here, from the official site of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints their “basic” doctrine of the “Nature of God”:
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Notice that the official site of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints uses the following terminology:
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I have even had Mormon missionaries at my door admit to these teachings once I bring them up. -
They deny the Trinity. They purposefully use language that sounds Christian. That is why they are so deceptive. They believe that Jesus is another god.
Craig, I know several former Mormons -- some were Mormon missionaries and were Mormons for 20 yrs. or more. I also have talked to Mormons more times than I can count. What I say above is what they teach but they do not publicize it outside their Church as it is damaging to them. Sometimes, Mormon missionaries do not know all the teachings yet, but some do. As I said, they have admitted this to me. -
From an article on Mormon Christology:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms vastly different doctrines in at least sixteen christological categories: (1) The LDS Church claims that all earthborn humans, including the Son of God, existed in a pre-incarnate state, which makes the incarnation of the Son of God routine phenomena; (2) All earthborn humans, including the Son of God, were sired by the Heavenly Father, who possesses a body of flesh and bones, by means of sexual intercourse with a heavenly mother; (3) All earthborn humans, including the Son of God, were sired, born and raised in a heavenly realm called Kolob; (4) The Son of God progressed from inferior states of existence to more superior states of existence culminating with his progression to the supreme form of deity after his bodily resurrection; (5) The LDS Church teaches that the Heavenly Father may even have sired the mortal Son of God by means of sexual intercourse with Mary; (6) The mortal Son of God was born on April 6, 1 B. C.; (7) The Son of God is one God among two other absolutely separate Gods in the Godhead of this world, and one God among many Gods in the universe; (8) The Son of God is exclusively identified with Jehovah of the Old Testament; (9) The Son of God is also figuratively identified as "Father" by the LDS Church; (10) The Son of God may also have been married to two or more wives, and he may have fathered children in the flesh as well; (11) The Son of God is a saved being, having progressed from an inferior (unsaved) state of existence to the superior (saved) state; (12) The Son of God did not create ex nihilo, he created many worlds by organizing eternal chaotic matter and was aided in this organizing enterprise by several other offspring of the Heavenly Father; (13) The LDS Church also affirms that the atonement of the Son of God actually produces the universal redemption (resurrection) of the entire family of Adam, but it does not actually result in the forensic justification of anyone; (14) The Son's atonement was also not directly related to the actual point of his death on the cross, the Son's suffering and bleeding in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross were the atoning events; (15) The Son of God appeared bodily to Mesoamerican Hebrews in A.D. 33 and to Joseph Smith and several other Mormons between 1820 and 1840, the Son also appeared bodily to Lorenzo Snow on the eve of his presidency; And (16), the Son of God will appear with Adam in Davies County, Missouri, he will also appear to worthy Mormons at the New Jerusalem (Independence, Missouri) and to the Jews in Judea before making himself known to the rest of mankind in the eschaton.
From
http://www.ontruth.com/dissertationoverview.htmlClick to expand... -
From, "Is Mormonism Christian" at
http://craom.net/areMormonsChristian.htm
Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.
Because Mormonism errors in who Jesus is, salvation (the forgiveness of sins) does not occur and the Mormon is still in his sins. Christians are saved from their sins and judgment by putting their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. But, faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. The Mormon Jesus is not the one of the Bible, even though they call him Jesus, say he died for sins, and was born in Bethlehem. The Mormon Jesus does not exist. It is the nature of Jesus that is the issue. Jesus must be God in flesh, (second person of the Trinity) not "a" god in flesh who is the brother of the devil. He must be uncreated, not created. He must be the creator (Col. 1:16-17). This is who the true Jesus really is: God, creator, uncreated, not the brother of the devil.Click to expand... -
More from above article:
Mormon theology teaches that god used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. The Jesus of Mormonism is definitely not the same Jesus of the Bible. Therefore, faith in the Mormon Jesus, is faith misplaced because the Mormon Jesus doesn't exist.
Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. Consider James Talmage, a very important Mormon figure who said, "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil" (Articles, p. 432), and "Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience" (Articles, p. 81). This contradicts the biblical doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation but a result of them (Rom. 4:5, James 2:14-18).
To further confuse the matter, Mormonism further states that salvation is twofold. It maintains that salvation is both forgiveness of sins and universal resurrection. So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection. But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not simple universal resurrection. Where Mormonism states that forgiveness of sins is not by faith alone, the Bible does teach it. Which is correct? Obviously, it is the Bible.Click to expand... -
From article by Bill McKeever, a friend of mine who has been in ministry to Mormons for over 20 yrs. He reads the Mormon source materials and knows what they believe.
Mormonism's Teaching Concerning the Virgin Birth
Compiled by Bill McKeever
One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is the belief that Christ was virgin born. The Bible teaches that though she had not yet had physical intercourse with a man, she miraculously conceived and bore a son.
Mormon leaders have insisted they believe in the virgin birth, yet they give a description far removed from that held by Christians throughout the centuries. The following quotes verify that the Mormon Church maintains a position regarding the birth of Christ which has never been accepted in Christian circles.
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7).
From
http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/birth.htmlClick to expand... -
More from above article:
"God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh ...The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father ...He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women, was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct" (The Seer, Orson Pratt, pg. 158).
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 8:115).
"...I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of Discourses, Heber C. Kimball, 8:211).Click to expand... -
More Mormon teachings:
One of the more offensive attributes designated to the Jesus of Mormonism is the claim that Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer. Twelfth President Spencer W. Kimball wrote, "Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators ... The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah." (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 32-33).
From
http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/the-savior.htmlClick to expand...
http://www.frontiernet.net/~bcmmin/b2.htm -
And finally, tons of stories from ex-Mormons:
http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm -
Originally posted by Marcia:
From an article on Mormon Christology:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms vastly different doctrines in at least sixteen christological categories: (1) The LDS Church claims that all earthborn humans, including the Son of God, existed in a pre-incarnate state, which makes the incarnation of the Son of God routine phenomena; (2) All earthborn humans, including the Son of God, were sired by the Heavenly Father, who possesses a body of flesh and bones, by means of sexual intercourse with a heavenly mother; (3) All earthborn humans, including the Son of God, were sired, born and raised in a heavenly realm called Kolob; (4) The Son of God progressed from inferior states of existence to more superior states of existence culminating with his progression to the supreme form of deity after his bodily resurrection; (5) The LDS Church teaches that the Heavenly Father may even have sired the mortal Son of God by means of sexual intercourse with Mary; (6) The mortal Son of God was born on April 6, 1 B. C.; (7) The Son of God is one God among two other absolutely separate Gods in the Godhead of this world, and one God among many Gods in the universe; (8) The Son of God is exclusively identified with Jehovah of the Old Testament; (9) The Son of God is also figuratively identified as "Father" by the LDS Church; (10) The Son of God may also have been married to two or more wives, and he may have fathered children in the flesh as well; (11) The Son of God is a saved being, having progressed from an inferior (unsaved) state of existence to the superior (saved) state; (12) The Son of God did not create ex nihilo, he created many worlds by organizing eternal chaotic matter and was aided in this organizing enterprise by several other offspring of the Heavenly Father; (13) The LDS Church also affirms that the atonement of the Son of God actually produces the universal redemption (resurrection) of the entire family of Adam, but it does not actually result in the forensic justification of anyone; (14) The Son's atonement was also not directly related to the actual point of his death on the cross, the Son's suffering and bleeding in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross were the atoning events; (15) The Son of God appeared bodily to Mesoamerican Hebrews in A.D. 33 and to Joseph Smith and several other Mormons between 1820 and 1840, the Son also appeared bodily to Lorenzo Snow on the eve of his presidency; And (16), the Son of God will appear with Adam in Davies County, Missouri, he will also appear to worthy Mormons at the New Jerusalem (Independence, Missouri) and to the Jews in Judea before making himself known to the rest of mankind in the eschaton.
From
http://www.ontruth.com/dissertationoverview.html
Click to expand...
Dr. Carrigan is a fine evangelical Christian apologist and evangelist. To put it in our "Baptist" terms... he is a good soul-winner. He knows the false teachings of the enemy and he uses that information to expose their self-defeating claims in the light of the Gospel and then help those who have been deceived by them to come to know the truth of God's Word.
What you have to understand is that he did not just make up the things that he exposes about Mormon Christology. He spent time studying their teachings and published materials (as Craig is suggesting is the smart thing to do). Then he evaluated his findings in the light of God's Word, which resulted in his ability to expose their false teachings/beliefs about Christ, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity etc. (as all of us, I hope, agree is the right and Biblical thing to do).
One of the things that I remember most from taking Dr. Carrigan's Christian Faith and World Religions class here at SEBTS is that Mormons use the same terminology as we (Evangelical Christians) use. However, how they define those terms is vastly different and that is what leads to their error and false teachings. When you discuss with a Mormon you must remember to make them define the terms that they use so that you do not assume that they mean the same thing that you mean when you use the same term. Here is one example: Mormons use the term Trinity to refer to what they call the "Triune" nature of God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. However, they do not teach/believe that the Trinity means that these three are one God in three persons with the exact same nature and essance (as in traditional orthodox Christian teaching). What they mean is that God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one (i.e. a Trinity or Triune) in that they share a common purpose only.
[ May 19, 2005, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ] -
Bible-boy wrote,
One of the things that I remember most from taking Dr. Carrigan's Christian Faith and World Religions class here at SEBTS is that Mormons use the same terminology as we (Evangelical Christians) use. However, how they define those terms is vastly different and that is what leads to their error and false teachings. When you discuss with a Mormon you must remember to make them define the terms that they use so that you do not assume that they mean the same thing that you mean when you use the same term. Here is one example: Mormons use the term Trinity to refer to what they call the "Triune" nature of God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. However, they do not teach/believe that the Trinity means that these three are one God in three persons with the exact same nature and essance (as in traditional orthodox Christian teaching). What they mean is that God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one (i.e. a Trinity or Triune) in that they share a common purpose only.Click to expand...
The greatest weapon against the false teachings of Mormonism is the truth. The more that a Christian knows about his own faith and the teachings of Mormonism, the less chance there will be of that Christian being deceived by the Mormons. If there is anything that Mormons hate, it is when their false teachings are exposed in detail by those who have studied their beliefs thoroughly enough to accurately expose them so that they have no defense. Typically, those who attempt to expose the false teachings of Mormonism do not know the teachings well enough to accurately expose them and the Mormons in turn are then able to absolutely refute the charges against their faith.Click to expand...
General knowlege about such cults is more than enough. We don't study Satanism to know it's wrong, nor should we engage in an indepth study of Mormonism, JW, Oneness, etc.Click to expand...
No, it is not. Mormons use the same theological words that Christians do, but they attach to them very different meanings. Therefore, a Christian can read many Mormon articles and posts on the internet, not knowing that they are written by Mormons, and think that the articles are right-on and very helpful. This can lead them to gain confidence in the author of those articles or posts long before they even begin to realize that they are gaining confidence in an author who is a Mormon. And by the time they realize that the author is a Mormon, they have already seen that what he has written is the truth. BUT—IT IS NOT THE TRUTH! And as they continue reading these articles and posts, they gradually come to understand the theological words as Mormons do and they become Mormons before they even realize that anything at all is wrong. The Mormon Church has swallowed up thousands of Baptists through their clever deceit, and knowing just a little about the Mormon Church and their theology without knowing and understanding the words that they use to express it is NOT enough.
And of course when Baptists witness to Mormons and speak of the “atonement” of Christ for our sins, unless they know the Mormon understanding of the word and explain to the Mormons the Christian use of the word, they will only convince the Mormons that the Mormon doctrine is true. And there are many such words that Mormons use differently than do Christians. A little knowledge of Mormonism can be much more dangerous than no knowledge at all, because it can and often does give the Baptist Christian a false sense of confidence. And there are very many ex-Baptist Mormons to prove it!Click to expand... -
Marcia wrote,
The use of "dingbat" is juvenile, don't you think?Click to expand...
Everything I posted about Mormon beliefs is still taught by the Mormon church, Craig.Click to expand...
The offical LDS prophets and leadership have not renounced or recanted or changed those doctrines I mentioned.Click to expand...
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Craig,
You state that 1) you have taught comparative religions classes
2) Mormonism is false
3) Many Christian attempts to expose Mormonism's falsity is pathetic junk
4) that we can't rely on many direct statements from Mormons because those were dingbat Mormons from long ago.
Would you please, with documentation, state what you find objectionable in Mormon theology?
The thrust of your remarks in this thread, to me, is that whatever Marcia says, you need to show that you have a more sophisticated response than she does.
And you don't answer direct questions directly.
Karen
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