Eternal Fire

Alcott --A very valid question! According to the above quote, the "soul" can be destroyed in HELL (Gehenna), therefore, it can't be immortal.

Soul here means "life". [/QUOTE]

OK, first you insist there is "no differentiation" between body and soul, and here where Jesus makes such a differentiation, then you shift to the destruction of the soul (as the body had already been destroyed). And finally you say "soul here means 'life'".

So that comes out: "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the life; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both life and body in hell."

And transitively, if body = soul = life (each of these you have said on this thread), then Jesus was talking gibberish by saying man can destroy one but not another.

 

Alcott

I don't have a PhD in theology. I just try to understand this stuff like anyone else.

What I know is that "psuche" can be rendered many things, including soul and life.

I just don't think the word soul (psuche) in Matt 10:28 indicates something immortal, since it is able to be destroyed in gehenna fire.

According to this web site -- http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html -- not one translation of "psuche" means anything immortal.

 

Nephesh can mean “body” --

Nephesh is used in many places where the revisers have supplied our English word “body”.

In Leviticus 21:11, “Neither shall he go in to any dead body [nephesh], nor defile himself….” A nephesh is called a “body” in this scripture.

In Numbers 6:6, 9:6, 7, 10 and 19:13 you can find identical renderings where the Hebrew word nephesh is translated into English as “dead body”.

The Prophet Haggai used the same word when he said, “If one that is unclean by a dead body [nephesh] touch any of these, shall it be unclean?” (Hag. 2:13).

These scriptures are plain, clear, and absolutely conclusive evidence that the same word rendered “soul” can refer to a “dead body.”

“Dead body [nephesh] ” – Lev. 21:11; Num. 6:6, 9:6, 9:7, 9:10


http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html
IX. Nephesh

[ June 23, 2004, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]

 

Let’s consider Jesus’ teaching on the subject of hell fire.

Take, for example, Matthew 23:33. Jesus here is condemning the Pharisees and the scribes for their hypocrisy (verse 27), and He concludes, “You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell [Gehenna]?”


We must place ourselves in Jesus’ audience.

If you had been standing there and heard Him condemning the Pharisees in this way, all you had to do was lift your eyes and look to the south to see the smoke arising from the valley of Hinnom – from Gehenna – and recall the prophecies of Jeremiah.

No other interpretation of the word Gehenna was known to Jesus’ audience at any time. They did not imagine a cavern in the bowels of the earth, with bubbling pools of fire, demons tormenting sinners, etc.

They visualized a foul, defiled, stinking garbage dump where their bodies could be dumped to be burned and disposed of – nothing more.

 

Wopik,

Are you still trying to ride that dead horse?

I seriously doubt that you have/are/will convince anyone on this Board that God will simply incinerate those who spurned His offer of forgiveness.

You are entitled to your opinions, no matter how twisted they are. But you have yet to tell us which group you take them from. Armstrong? SDA? JW? Other?

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Trotter, sadly there are evangelicals who preach annihilationism, like John Stott and Clark Pinnock. Though Pinnock has now strayed away in other areas as well.

Wopik, if you do have Armstrong, JW, or other beliefs it would be good to know. That gives a context for what you are saying. Why be ashamed of what you believe if you think it's true?

I also wanted to say that many nonbelievers today believe that when they die they will just be gone. So how can God's punishment for sin be to annihilate? That does not bother any of these people. If that was God's judgment on sin, they would say, "So what? Big deal?" Of course, this is not why I believe in eternal suffering for the lost (it's because of the Bible), but it's a point to consider.

To reduce God's punishment on sin against an eternal God to annihiliationism minimizes the suffering of Jesus and his payment on the cross for sins. He saved us just from being obliterated? I don't think so. We are saved, when we believe, from the wrath of God.

God's wrath is not a petty fit or some kind of one-time tantrum. It is not simply to zap people. Sin against an eternal God brings eternal punishment.

 

Amen, Marcia.

 

".....fear Him which is able to destroy both BODY and SOUL in Hell" (Gehenna of fire). --- Matt 10:28

Thanks, Wopik for being punctual with your arguments. You're right on time with this one - it was next in line. ;)

First, let me quote you something that Garner Ted wrote in one of his books. Concerning evil spirits and Satan he wrote...

" Evil supernatural beings do exist. The Bible reveals Satan is eternal and will not be destroyed in the sense of human or physical destruction..."

Hmm. Interesting. Let's look at the verse you referrence...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Do you see that word "destroy'? Here it is in Greek..
==================================================
622 - Greek
622 apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee
from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
======================================================

O.K., do you remember Garner Ted's quote from above? Now look at this passage...

Mar 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Uh-oh. SAME word. 622 apollumi;destroy. So, when the Bible talks about the destruction of Satan and demons it doesn't mean annihilation, but when it talks about the destruction of men, it does mean annihilation, even though the same Greek word is used? Nah, don't think so.

Let's look at this Greek word from a couple of the main Greek dictionaries.

From Kittle's dictionary...

apollumi; "not a simple extinction of existence, but an everlasting state of torment and death."

From W.E. Vines ...

"not the idea of extinction, but ruin, loss. Not of being, but of well being."

Now, from Jamieson, Fausset and Brown...

"..which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell--A decisive proof this that there is a hell for the body as well as the soul in the eternal world; in other words, that the torment that awaits the lost will have elements of suffering adapted to the material as well as the spiritual part of our nature, both of which, we are assured, will exist for ever. In the corresponding warning contained in Luke (Luk_12:4), Jesus calls His disciples "My friends," as if He had felt that such sufferings constituted a bond of peculiar tenderness between Him and them.

And from Robertson's Word Pictures...

...Destroy both soul and body in hell (kai yuxhn kai swma apolesai en geennh). Note "soul" here of the eternal spirit, not just life in the body. "Destroy" here is not annihilation, but eternal punishment in Gehenna (the real hell) for which see on Mat_5:22. Bruce thinks that the devil as the tempter is here meant, not God as the judge, but surely he is wrong. There is no more needed lesson today than the fear of God.

Now, from your other scripture referrence...

...""these will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
Now, let's look at the passage one more time...
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The context, as me and others have pointed out to you, plainly shows that what is being referred to is separation from God. Everlastingly so. But, you just cann't accept it from us, so let's let those with the responsibility of translating the Greek into English tell you.

First, Robertson's Word Pictures...

Eternal destruction (oleqron aiwnion). Accusative case in apposition with dikhn (penalty). This phrase does not appear elsewhere in the N.T., but is in IV Macc. 10:15 ton aiwnion tou turannou oleqron the eternal destruction of the tyrant (Antiochus Epiphanes). Destruction (cf. 1Th_5:3) does not mean here annihilation, but, as Paul proceeds to show, separation

from the face of the Lord (apo proswpou tou kuriou) and from the

glory of his might (kai apo thv dochv thv isxuov autou), an eternity of woe such as befell Antiochus Epiphanes. Aiwniov in itself only means age-long and papyri and inscriptions give it in the weakened sense of a Caesar's life (Milligan), but Paul means by age-long

From Jamieson, Fausset and Brown...

...2Th 1:9 - Who--Greek, "persons who," &c.

destruction from the presence of the Lord--driven far from His presence [ALFORD]. The sentence emanating from Him in person, sitting as Judge [BENGEL], and driving them far from Him (Mat_25:41; Rev_6:16; Rev_12:14; compare 1Pe_3:12; Isa_2:10, Isa_2:19). "The presence of the Lord" is the source whence the sentence goes forth; "the glory of His power" is the instrument whereby the sentence is carried into execution [EDMUNDS]. But ALFORD better interprets the latter clause (see 2Th_1:10), driven "from the manifestation of His power in the glorification of His saints." Cast out from the presence of the Lord is the idea at the root of eternal death, the law of evil left to its unrestricted working, without one counteracting influence of the presence of God, who is the source of all light and holiness (Isa_66:24; Mar_9:44).

Now, Wopik, it's free country. ( Sort of ) And you're free to do what you want to. You don't have to accept any of this. You can "make it up as you go" if you want to. But don't come on here and tell me it ain't Biblical.

Jim

 

Amen, Jim!

 

I know I will never convince you that the wages of sin is DEATH (Rom 6:23), and not eternal punishING in gehenna fire.

I know I will never convince you that the wicked will be "ashes under our feet" - Malachi 4 - total annihilation -- total DEATH.

I know I will never convince you that the wicked will be "burned up with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12) -- till they are totally DEAD.

Have you ever heard the screams of people burning to DEATH in an automobile accident ? And you all think that is insignificant !

God paid our punishment - DEATH - on the cross. He didn't spend three days in the fires of gehenna fire - paying off our debt. He spent three days DEAD, paying off our debt and our sins.

That's why Paul says, "The wages of sin is DEATH". Jesus showed us what that was about.

 

Whatever, Wopik. You can keep your SDA dogma, 'cause we don't need it.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

No, you will never convince me because your views are not backed up by scripture. One does not use the OT as the final word on after death scenarios and one looks at verses in context, which you do not do with many you have posted. If I had a dollar for every time I've refuted you with scripture, I could buy myself a nice meal!

No one said Jesus was in the fires of hell. He was with God after he died on the cross and his body was in the grave; then he bodily resurrected.

The screams of a person dying in a car crash are temporary. This is not payment for sins, that is why God tells us that the lost will be "tormented day and night forever and ever" with the devil, the beast, and the false prophet.

 

I know I will never convince you that the wages of sin is DEATH (Rom 6:23), and not eternal punishING in gehenna fire.

No, you don't have to convince me; I know it's a fact. I just won't accept your and Garner Ted's definition of spiritual death when the New Testament and Christ Himself defined it differently than you do.

I know I will never convince you that the wicked will be "ashes under our feet" - Malachi 4 - total annihilation -- total DEATH.

No, you'll never convince me that Malachi 4 is talking about annihilation when I KNOW it's talking about the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation. If I took your view of it, I'd be taking it out of context and twisting scripture to try to get it to say something it doesn't.

I know I will never convince you that the wicked will be "burned up with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12) -- till they are totally DEAD.

Sure, they will be. Again, who's definition of "death" do I follow? Garner Ted's? Or the Bible's?

God paid our punishment - DEATH - on the cross. He didn't spend three days in the fires of gehenna fire - paying off our debt. He spent three days DEAD, paying off our debt and our sins

Who the heck on this forum said that? Who do you think you're talking to? Catholics?

Let me ask you a question, Wopik. You wrote...

===============================================================================

Alcott


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is any differentiation between body and soul made here? ...

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alcott --A very valid question! According to the above quote, the "soul" can be destroyed in HELL (Gehenna), therefore, it can't be immortal.

================================================================================

Let's go back and look at that verse again...


Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).

I want to ask you - suppose that you are one of God's children. God is not going to "destroy your soul and Body in hell", because you belong to Him. But, suppose the first thing Christ mentioned there happens. Suppose that an evil person kills your body. Jesus Himself said that is all they can do; they can't kill your soul. Alright, your body is dead. They can't kill your soul: where is it? God ain't going to kill it; you're a child of His, so where is it? According to Jesus, it's still alive. What is it and where did it go?
Garner Ted's theology is totally unable to answer this question - unless, of course, you subscribe to his "floating around in the tombstones" idea. Which - of course- the Bible shoots down completely.

But would you mind answering the above question?

Jim

 

"And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" -- Matt 3:12, New American Standard Bible.

You obviously understand this verse differently than I do. Would someone please explain this verse to me then.

 

The word "soul" - here - comes from the Greek word psuche. In other NT verses, psuche is also translated into English as "life", "heart", "mind", "you", "us".--(link)


Other men can kill our body and take our life [soul], but God can restore both, if He chooses.

Only God can destroy our body and our soul [life] in gehenna fire (Matt 10:28), if He so decides.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html

[ June 27, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]

 

The word "soul" - here - comes from the Greek word psuche. In other NT verses, psuche is also translated into English as "life", "heart", "mind", "you", "us".--(link)

And you are saying that "soul" should be translated "life".

Your next sentance...

Other men can kill our body and take our life [soul], but God can restore both, if He chooses.

Now, compare what you just said with what God in the flesh said...

Wopik - Other men can kill our body and take our life [soul]


Jesus - Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;

You just flatly contradicted Christ, Wopik.

Jim

 

I received this email today. I thought it might be useful to this thread -

gracEmail (A LOVING CHALLENGE TO THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH - 1)
EDWARD FUDGE
Jun 27, 2004


Are you ready for a challenge to your thinking? If so, read on. (If not, perhaps you will want to delete this message now and read no further.)


Five Astounding Surprises . . .


For 1500 years, most Christians have assumed as true a doctrine which . . .

1. Is nowhere found in the Word of God;

2. Sprang from explicitly pagan presuppositions;

3. Slanders the character of God and the Lord Jesus Christ;

4. Prevailed in Protestantism for political, not biblical, reasons; and

5. Has been rejected by an increasing number of such faithful scholars as W. Graham Scroggie, John R. W. Stott, Philip Edgcumbe Hughes, F. F. Bruce, John W. Wenham, Clark Pinnock, Dale Moody and Michael Green.

That unbiblical tradition is the notion that God will keep the wicked alive forever in hell for the purpose of suffering unending conscious torment.


Five Traditional Assumptions . . .


The tradition of everlasting torment, as expressed by its most able advocates, depends on five undergirding assumptions:


1. That the Old Testament is silent about the wicked's final end;

2. That the doctrine of unending conscious torment was the uniform Jewish view of Jesus' day;

3. That Jesus' references to Gehenna all presuppose this supposed "uniform" view;

4. That New Testament language on this subject demands unending conscious torment; and

5. That historic Christian orthodoxy requires unending conscious torment.

These were also my assumptions 26 years ago, as I began a year-long research project on the subject. That investigation led me through the Old Testament, the Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha and Dead Sea Scrolls, the New Testament, the apostolic fathers, the Greek and Latin fathers, the ancient creedal statements of the undivided Church, medieval and Reformation theologians, and pertinent works from then until now. It also revealed, to my total surprise and consternation, that all five of my traditional assumptions were wrong!

The product of that work was my book entitled The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment. (The condensed British edition is titled: The Fire That Consumes: The Biblical Case for Conditional Immortality.) This book examines 1,000 passages of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation and interacts with approximately 200 other works on the subject. See www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html .

 

KenH,

I checked out the link. No wonder this guy sounds nuts. He is Church of Christ! So that really explains a lot...maybe even some about some others hereabouts.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Trotter,

I wouldn't be so quick with your prejudice in this case. Edward Fudge is not the typical Church of Christ teacher. You might want to do some more research on brother Fudge instead of jumping to a conclusion based on mere denominational membership.

BTW, if you think brother Fudge sounds nuts, I'd hate to know what you would think of me if I engaged you in a discussion on this subject. You might think that brother Fudge was quite orthodox.

 

Jim W

Yes.

The Greek word, "psuche" translated "soul" in this verse has the meaning of "life".

In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For whosoever shall save his life [psuche] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it."

Obviously if the words "immortal soul" were substituted for "life" in this reference, the result would be absurd.

In the R.S.V. "psuche" is translated "life" in vs. 26: "For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life [psuche]."

The similarity of context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html

============================================

Christ is obviously and always correct! Other people can not utterly and finally destroy us completely.

What is meant by "not able to kill the soul"?

Simply, "Fear not (for an instant) them which kill the body, but are NOT able to destroy you [psuche] utterly and finally." (2Cor. 12:15, kjv see margin).

For the disciple, his life is "hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3) and although men may kill the body, in the resurrection this life will be given back to the body. (See Col. 3:4).


===============================================


It is sometimes argued that "destroy" means to "afflict" or "torment" but not to annihilate. The Greek word, "apollu" translated "destroy" means to "destroy utterly". Ethelbert W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek Testament, (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons Ltd., 1957), p. 220.

There is not the slightest suggestion of torment in any of the places where "apollu" is translated "destroy" in the A.V. (e.g. Matt. 2:13; 12:14; 21:41. 22:7; 27:20).