But of course, that's the mark of Protestantism, you know, start your own, what's happening now church...so your pastor has no connections to any other Church? Who ordained your pastor? There's no sending church that sent your pastor out, he just woke-up one morning and decided to self ordain himself and start a church. Is it really that simple DHK? Doesn't sound like the NT Church to me...
Still DHK, where did you obtain your pastoral qualifications...what seminary did you attend? Like Timothy, who was your "St. Paul"?
InXC
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"Eternally begotten of the Father"...?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Matt Black, Apr 15, 2008.
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I assume you also missed the memo on Christmas...the birth of Christ?
InXC
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You show a total lack of knowledge in this subject. Why don't you just quit. Most protestants are noted for their large organizational structures and even hierarchal structure. Baptists have none, especially the IFB's. No we have no connections to any other church. What connections did Faith Baptist Church in Indianapolis have? What denomination are they a part of? You were there for four years? What denomination were they a part of?
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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You still haven't answered Agnus' pertinent question: who ordained you and your pastor, and with what authority? -
1. You quoted me as saying:
" IFB churches are not Protestants and never were. They were not part of the Protestant movement."
I don't need to provide evidence for that (at least not right now, for this is not the thread for it), because I have given testimony that our church is not a part of the Protestant movement, and never has been. It is an Independent Church apart from all other Protestant churches. Either believe my testimony or call me a liar. Apparently you revel in calling me a liar, for you know nothing of my church, and refuse the testimony of me and of my church even though you have never been here.
I also have challenged Agnus to go to his former church, Faith Baptist, and ask what denomination they belong to? Apparently he has not done that, and is not willing to.
2. You quoted me as saying:
You don't know what a "church" is. My "church" doesn't belong to a "Church", something that doesn't exist.
--I thought you knew better than this. This is not just my authority; but the authority of the Greek language.
"Ekklesia" means assembly, every time it is used in the NT. It has no other meaning. If it was properly translated (as it is in the Darby translation) it would be translated either "assembly" or "congregation." That is what the word means. There is no such thing as a universal church except in heaven where all believers will be gathered together as one assembly. My local church is my assembly, my congregation. There is no such thing as a denomination in the Bible. You won't find it there.
You won't find it in the Greek. You won't find it in the doctrine of ecclesiology (theology). It isn't there. Every church made its own decisions. None of the churches were related to each other. What went on in Corinth was completely separate from what went on in Philippi. The letters written to both churches were not from some greater church organization, or from a pope. Paul was a missionary giving advice to churches that he had been to, and churches that he had started. That is the only connection that he had to these churches. They had no connection to one another. They were all independent of each other and made their decisions as churches. I take my authority from the Word of God.
3. You quoted me saying:
"A "church" (ekklesia) is an assembly of believers that are baptized and gathered together for the purpose of carrying out the Great Commission and the commands that Christ has given them. That is the only type of church that is defined in the Bible. There is no other."
The above definition of a local church is found in many Baptist statements of faith and also in many Baptist textbooks such as Hiscox's "A New Directory of Baptist Churches," a common textbook used in many Bible Colleges.
Need I go on?
There is a place for anonymity on this board. I like to keep it that way.
As for general policy. It is in the power of the local church itself to ordain a pastor (after reviewing his credentials). The local church alone has that power. It was given to the local church by God himself. You will find that in Scripture. Study Acts 13:1-4, along with Acts 14:23. -
DHK, don’t hem haw around, just answer the questions…
InXC
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No, I do not celebrate Christmas in any way on December 25.
Is that clear enough. Don't ask me again. No false innuendos. No false accusations. Leave it.
Now as a moderator of this thread, if you keep on about these questions, which have been asked and answered multiplied times I will have to delete them if they are asked again. They have nothing to do with the topic of the thread, do they? -
Doesn’t the Jehovah’s Witnesses not celebrate Christmas either? That’s odd.
In XC
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Also, for the class DHK, can you name a few second, third, fourth, fifth century “Baptist” fathers that were martyred and also provide for the class documentation of their martyrdom what they believed theologically (to see if that fits with today’s Baptist distintives) and what were the names of these “pre-denominational” “Baptist” Churches and there locations geographically?
InXC
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter1.htm[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Did he preach the truth about Christmas?[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]--That Christ was never born on Dec.25.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]--That the early Christians never celebrated Christians.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]--That his birth was probably in the spring when the shepherds were out tending their sheep.
[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]--That Dec.25, like Easter, is also associated with pagan feasts and rituals.
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When I questioned him, he told me to keep it quite…he didn’t expect people to verify his sources.
The same source you cite in terms of “Easter” is the same material atheists use to discredit Christianity as being a rip-off of various pagan beliefs…I’m ashamed of you pastor…what if some soul searching out the truth reads your cites and convinces him, that Christianity is a hoax?
Fortunately, I’m strong in my faith, to celebrate Easter, with the Easter Bunny and Easter Egg hunts, and all the festivities and still keep in the forefront of all the festivities that what this is all about is our Lord trampling down death by death, that Hades couldn’t contain Him and His Church is pretty good at that, from what I just experienced last week of Holy Week.
At least in the Antiochian Jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church, we enjoy Autocephaly, meaning we are “Self-headed”, but still our Creed and our Liturgy is what bounds us to each of the other Orthodox Churches; which means I can visit an Orthodox Church in Romania and will recite the same creed and enjoy the same Liturgy as I would in Wichita, KS and the same theology. I could then travel to Lebanon and do the same, back to Moscow, then to Greece and never have to worry that I’m in a Church of not like faith.
InXC
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Likewise our views on Islam are bound to be the same. I am not sure what your complaint was there. Information on Islam can be gathered from many different sources: both religious and secular.
Our churches are not so. We are urged to study the Word. Sola scriptura encourages us to do so. If it is based on the Bible, we make sure that what is preached is indeed based on the Bible. There are checks and balances.
Read Acts 17:11
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
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InXC
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Back on the "Endless Loop"
(This is by no means a perfect illustration, but please bear with me).
American football is a different game to British football. The players abide by different sets of rules. Imagine a discussion involving American players and British footballers. The subject of handling the ball comes up. "Only the goal-keeper may handle the ball; if anyone else handles it, it is a foul!" says a British player. "Not right!" says an American, "Players can handle the ball!" They won't agree, because they are relying on two different authorities.
Is it not at least a similar situation when those like me, who believe that the bible is our sole authority discuss matters with those like "the Latin Lamb" (Agnus), who don't? The arguments will go round and round, but without agreement on the matter of authority, discussions on anything else will inevitibly come down to discussing the same thing - authority. That seems to have happened in this thread. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Yes, indeed, David, an excellent analogy. For instance, it is pretty useless trying to convince me by proof-texting alone (even the Devil tried that trick on Jesus in the Wilderness!) without also adducing evidence as to how the Apostles and their successors have intrepreted that text; similarly, it is fairly non-productive for me to try to persuade someone like your goodself to rely on Tradition when it comes to matters of faith and practice. So we all end up talking past each other if we're not careful.
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Eternal Sonship
The original post to this thread concerned the question of the eternal sonship of Jesus. I am getting into the tail end of this discusion. I will start from the beginning and comment accordingly, if the subject has not changed too drastically. If that is not acceptable to all involved please inform me so. revjwwhitejr@aol.com -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Please do!
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