Faith vs Logic II

[Phillip]

By the way, the way we Christians live has a lot to do with whether or not we have an effect on them. Seeds can be planted simply by seeing someone who trusts God to the point that they trust God to take care of their needs.

A neighbor might see us going to church every Sunday and if we have a smile on our face, they may start craving to know what makes us so happy.

This is why we must be careful what we do as Christians. The non-Christians are watching us to find out why we even bother. If we go around grumbling about being Christians, then we may have a negative influence.

My point here is that we have not used scripture directly on the individual. We are living by scripture, so it is being used indirectly, but the logic is that the Christian has something that they don't have, and we need to let them know it is worth it.

Has anybody here seen Sermon-on-the-mount where Lew Sterrett breaks horses in front of the crowd by getting the horse to trust them? He is here in our city right now and I watched him last night.

He compares the horse and rider, to humans and God.

The horse goes through several stages, in brief,

stage one--a young non-ridden horse ignores the person in the pen with him and walks away when he approaches.

stage two--the horse gets angry because the man makes him turn in directions he does not want to go. (God convicting us--anger at loss of freedom is a natural reaction)

stage three--the horse begins to trust because the man does not force himself on the horse and allows the horse to walk away. But the man shows his love by petting the horse and then walking away.

Stage four--the horse starts questioning the man. He has recognized the man, now he has questions that must be answered honestly, who are you, what do you want with me, why should I give my life to you? And some of these question relate to do you exist and may be beyond scripture and require some reasoning.

etc. until the horse is ridden without rebellion or bucking.

I know this is off thread somewhat, but it shows the steps of logic vs. faith and the steps we all go through before we can put our faith in Jesus.

Not until we can safely put the saddle on the horse, without the horse rebelling (this will NOT happen in stage one and two) will the horse finally accept becoming a servant. This could be compared to feeding him with scripture.

Sure, there is enough in God's Word to save a person, but often that person wants real world answers because he has not yet developed a faith in why he should accept "that Book" as the Word of God.

Just another thought. . .

 

[michelle]

Thank you JohnV for your prayers for my husband and your recommendations. I greatly appreciate them, and for your kind post!

I have the books by Lee Stroebel, and have read the first one, that you mentioned. My husband will not read it. I do not know if this would help him or not, but I do know that his hearing the words of God - the scriptures are really the only thing that will bring him ultimately to repentance. This is exactly how the Lord brought me to repentance and salvation, and nothing else could or would. It was the word of God that convicted my heart, not the words, reasonings or experiences of man. Sure, the Lord may use outside things to soften hearts, but in the end and in truth, it is the word of God that convicts to repentance and salvation, and it is through FAITH in Jesus Christ and who He is, what He did, and what He will do and what He is now doing.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle, I am not trying to trap you here, I really would like to see a scripture that says that all men KNOW God exists. Somehow I think this is right up there with "Cleanliness is next to Godliness."
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Romans 1.


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So, you are saying your husband is an athiest, but he knows God exists, so he is really not an athiest? Does he know he is not an athiest?
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The truth is there is no such thing as an atheist. All are given to know God exists, and therefore have NO EXCUSE.

Romans 1

20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

I stand corrected Michelle. I also told Gene that.

Maybe there is no excuse, but there is rebellion. Your husband wants to know "why" he should put his faith in God. What will it do for Him. He may realize there is a God, but he also may be in total denial that God sent His Son to Save Him. I think your life is having an effect on him; however, because I could just feel it in his response defending you.

He is going to have to come to a point that it is "logical" that God did it this way and gives us Salvation. Denial will not allow him to see the logic. At least, not at this particular point in his journey. But, to me (my opinion) based on what you say and how he responded, that he is starting to ask the all important questions. He may deny it, but the questions are in his heart.

God bless and we will pray for you. I don't think you will disagree with me that the scriptures indicate that prayer is not powerful.

 

[Phillip]

By the way, Michelle, if he will stay still to listen to scriptures without becoming frustrated, pour them on. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. But if he becomes frustrated, give him some freedom. God wants us to love Him of our own free will and it is natural for us to rebel at giving our life away of our own free will. We (as the young horse in my other post) are self-centered and want everything OUR way. If he becomes frustrated, do as the horseman does, walk away and let him know that you are not trying to force it on him---let him know you love him and are doing it out of love---sometimes this requires us to back away somewhat when rebellion occurs.

Eventually (just as the horse does) he will begin to ask questions. Then you know he has grown into another stage.

 

[russell55]

the scriptures are really the only thing that will bring him ultimately to repentance.

This is absolutely true. It'll take the word of truth along with the enlightening work of the Holy Spirit.

I am going to promise to pray for your husband's salvation every day for the next week. I will try to continue for longer than that, but it's probably best I promise just the week.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by russell55:

I am going to promise to pray for your husband's salvation every day for the next week. I will try to continue for longer than that, but it's probably best I promise just the week.

Let us all make this commitment folks, after all, isn't that why we are here? As Christians, we can put our differences aside for the common good and most of us underestimate the power of many Christians praying for the same goal.

 

[Johnv]

Michelle, don't become frustrated with your husband. An acquaintence of mine came to know the Lord, after TWELVE YEARS of being around people like me and other Christian friends. My did not come to know the Lord until he was on his deathbed, when he was 60. Let the Holy Spirit do what needs to be done, in His time, not ours.

In the mean time, I don't care what scripures you give him. Share with him the scripture that you know, the KJV that God has blessed you with. I will in the mean time continue to pray without ceasing for you and yours.

God bless!

Johnv

 

[HankD]

Dear michelle,

I also will pray that God will visit your husband with enlightenment

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world".

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning".

Mark 5:36 ...Be not afraid, only believe.

Paul used reason and logic in an attempt to awaken (humanly speaking) faith in others, but you are right in that Paul reasoned with them from the Scriptures...

2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

So reason and logic are proper in preaching the Gospel. I agree that they are not substitutes for faith but are a means to that end.

May the Lord open your husband's eyes. Amen.

HankD

 

[michelle]

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God bless and we will pray for you. I don't think you will disagree with me that the scriptures indicate that prayer is not powerful.
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Thank you Phillip, and for your kind post also. Yes, I absolutely agree that prayer is powerful but also necessary! I also agree with what you said here:

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My point here is that we have not used scripture directly on the individual. We are living by scripture, so it is being used indirectly, but the logic is that the Christian has something that they don't have, and we need to let them know it is worth it.
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AMEN! As the Lord has said:

Matthew 5

16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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All we are trying to say is that: if God created this world and this universe, then everything about true science or everything we see is logical and logically pointing back to what God did and is doing. An athiest, believing in evolution will, no doubt not be viewing logic properly. They, themselves will admit that their belief is nothing more than a theory. It just may be that it is not what YOUR husband needs (creationism, etc.). It would effect me, because I grew up liking science and becoming an engineer; on the other-hand, he will have different interests. Try to appeal to those interests.
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Actually my husband is an evolutionist, and believes it is FACT and is very much into science. However, whenever we have discussed this, he is ALWAYS faced with the problem that everything had to come from somewhere, and order does not come from chaos (big bang theory), and that there must have been SOMEONE who created everything out of nothing and in an orderly fashion, along with the evidence of "life" itself. He is always left with admitting there is a "higher power" as he so calls it, but never God, and ultimately still insists he does not exist. This is his denial and rejection of God and the truth. He realizes this, I do believe, but cannot, or will not come to acknowlegde it, or admit it - lacking in FAITH. He has been educated in electrical engineering. He is a very smart man (scores in I.Q as genius), and has been nicknamed "Al" for Albert Einstein. This I fear, is what is blinding him and hardening his heart. With this mindset, nothing but the truth in the scriptures will help convict his heart and hopefully my example, and the example of our children and other christians who we know, and prayers.

So I have used reasoning with him, and based upon God's truth/logic. However, as I have witnessed, God's word is what really brings him to stop and think. Even though my husband is unsaved, the Lord has also used him to help me understand things, or to ask me a question, to which requires me to dig deeper into the word of God for answers and understanding, which hopefully, in turn will eventually help him also.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

I just wanted to thank you all for your prayers concerning my husband, and for all of your advice. I truly and deeply appreciate all of your care and concerns. May our Lord richly bless you all.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Michelle,

Everyone joins in with heart felt desire that your husband would come to know Christ and supports you in prayer that you will be an effective witness. We will all rejoice with you if he comes to the glorious truth of salvation through Jesus Christ. What a day that will be!!

However, you have not addressed the issue of Paul on Mars Hill. He did use unsaved writers as part of his reasoning, he did appeal to their logic, he then gave the gospel and some were saved. Your husband is confronted with the logical fact that there had to be "something" behind it all. What a blessing,may this be the open door that leads to further discussion with him.

I know we differ in many areas, but this comes from a heartfelt desire to see your husband saved. If he rejects the Bible, perhaps using Pauls's example is soemthing you might pray about.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Michelle, I too will pray for you and for your husband. Most men don't want a wife to lecture them (or pour Scripture down their throat). It makes it very difficult for the believing wife in such a situation.

In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

To be fair, Dr Bob, there has been no indication that Michelle lectures her husband or pours scripture down his throat.

Here vociferous behaviour here may very well not be reflected in her home. I think it is unfair to question her dealings with her husband in her home.

[ October 09, 2004, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

[michelle]

Thank you for the advice, and I do realize that I must approach my husband in a very submissive way and that lecturing him, or constantly pouring scripture down his throat will do no good. Although, when I was first saved, and being a brand new born again christian, I was very zealous, and very immature, and did not know many things and handled it at first poorly - and I am sure I still am in many areas. Over time, the Lord has shown me, that I must be patient, and wait for the opportunities, and His leading, prayer and through a good example. God also uses my children. I have seen that he has become more open with me in discussion because of these things. God has also been working and changing me, which has most definately helped also. I used to have a bad temper, and get angry quickly, and over little things. I was unfortanately the one who wore the pants, most of the time, in our household, prior to my salvation. The Lord has changed me and made me a new person, and I truly believe my husband has noticed this. How could he not? I have faith, in time, the Lord's working on his heart, in various ways, through various people, and most importantly through the seed of his word of truth that has been planted, will eventually bring him to Faith in Jesus Christ. God has said as much in the scriptures and the one you quoted:

1 Peter 3

1. Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2. While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Phillip:
By the way, Michelle, if he will stay still to listen to scriptures without becoming frustrated, pour them on.

Clarifying - I was NOT questioning Michelle's action. I was trying to give an alternative to Phillip who had use the phrase "pour them on".

Been a pastor too many years not to share with Michelle the possible error of that extreme. I know it might sound odd of me since I cut her theological position to shreds, but we are still brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Understand - sorry for any confusion I added to the debate.

In this we are united - the desire to see Michelle's husband saved.

 

[Phillip]

Moderators, this may be off track just a little bit, but please bear with us, this track is too important to shut down just yet. We are still discussing "logic and faith".

Michelle, If it is any help. I too am an electronic engineer (my first career and still do it).

I think I know where your husband is coming from. Although I grew up in church and THOUGHT I was saved at 9 years old, I doubted the existence of God (or if you prefer "in denial").

It is DIFFICULT to be involved in the sciences with the secular world shoveling theories down our throats. I was there, I know.

Sadly, many of the creationists are not any better (sorry folks, just speaking fact). If they are fake or show things that aren't true, then it makes it more difficult to accept the truth. I think this is a very sly thing that Satan does. I honestly couldn't stand to listen to a creationist because I knew some that were not entirely honest with their science.

I finally turned to God when I realized that I needed his help and realized that He had protected me often, even while I was lost. I did things that should have either killed me or caused major problems, but I survived. God knew I would be saved and He was watching over me.

It was not until I reached the end of my rope and could not take things any more that I broke down and asked the Lord to enter and take over my life.

YES, Scripture (and my Mother's on-going prayers), finally brought me down.

During the lost time, I would still look up at the stars and just wonder how all of this could come to be without somebody to draw the schematics. I can throw a handful of transistors, resistors and capactors (electronic parts for those of you who are not engineers ) on the table every day, fifty times a day and they will NEVER, EVER make a spread spectrum receiver that can receive 12 satellites in space and tell me where I am on this earth within 10 meters. (Your husband knows what I am talking about.)

Then I started looking at the living organism. I viewed a film (of which I can probably get you a copy), that does not preach, it just simply shows how COMPLEX the operations of cellular mechanics are in producing replicas of DNA and using the correct portions to create enzymes to function properly. It SLOWLY came to me that someone had to be a designer. Where did He come from? I don't know, but this wasn't possible without higher intelligence.

With this search, the only thing I could accept was what made sense. The scriptures are "logical" because they contain the witnesses of hundreds of people who saw the miracles of Jesus Christ. The fact that the Bible was preserved for centuries with millions of copies all over the world that don't vary (not getting into translations here just pointing out the Word has existed even after people tried to destroy it for years, unlike many other books).

Here is how it actually HIT me. I started thinking. Here is a world that has existed for at least thousands of years and I am alive and sitting here right now. Now what are the odds that I am alive and sitting here right this minute in all of eternity writing this letter. Strange thought, huh?

So, I got to thinking, there has to be something after this world. So, to rationalize, you even think: "Could it be some form of rebirth or reincarnation". (See how stupid that sounds, but see how it is rationalized?) Using Logic, I knew this just couldn't be the fact, so I began searching. What is real? This is when the Lord kicks in and really starts to tug on your heart. You fight it. No....it can't be right. It is too simple. Christians are hypocrits. Any excuse works.

Then you start to realize the reason you are alive and sitting here right now is because God loves you and wants to use you, but you are resisting.

You put up a front because you don't want co-workers to think you have gone off the deep end and accepted that religion business. That religion that is so full of con artists on television, etc. Again, excuses for the real thing.

Finally, you realize, as you get older, that oops, I am eventually going to die and I don't like the thought of being here now and never, ever having consciousness again in this universe. It goes against everything that is inside of us.

So, in searching for the truth, God finally breaks us down and we realize; what does it matter if they think I am crazy, because eternity is more important than the short life we have here. I had to swallow my pride. Yes, my pride was my problem. Now, I don't CARE who sees me carrying a Bible. Who cares if I go to church (and don't think the neighbors don't watch you leave each Sunday, Bible in hand.)

Michelle, all I am doing is letting you know what I went through and the steps required to bring me to Christ. I too, LOVE science. I LOVE electronics, I LOVE building something that works. Not until I realized that it didn't matter HOW the earth was created, but God did create it could I accept him.

(Now don't jump onto me for saying that I am simply taking baby steps here.)

Then, after time, I began to look to see where and how science fit with the Bible. I argued with Helen on this website that the gap theory absolutely HAD to be true. She stood her ground, didn't fight me, but simply kept shoving the facts at me. Finally, I accepted God's Word as it says and realized that if we weren't back there; how do we know God didn't create this in seven days? How do we know that God didn't make things in the process? Coal already in the ground? Science often looks for an answer without God. A reason why something happens or looks the way it does. While there are now many, many Christian scientists, who realize that we are forming conclusions first and trying to make the world fit those conclusions.

Anyway, this has become long enough, but I just wanted you to see the steps I went through and maybe by reading this it will help you understand the steps your husband will have to go through. Obviously, he has already taken some of those steps; with your help.

Support him, if he will listen to scripture, teach him. See, it is a big step already that he will even listen to your scripture. I bet there was a time that he balked, or just did it because he wanted to please you by listening. It now sounds like he is listening on his own.

Anyway, he is free to read this if he wants and I wouldn't mind conversing with him if he has questions. I "been there, done that."

 

[gb93433]

Michelle:

My first two years as a college student were spent as a Physics major. I had discussions with my other non-Christian friends about what we were learning. I told one of my friends that there must be something to all of this because there are so many constants in those formulas we are using. Then I aksed him, "What dos that tell you?" He asked me, "What." I told him it tells me there must be God.

Many years later I went to a conference done by ICR. Henry Morris and his son John Morris spoke. When I heard that I started preaching from Genesis. I saw the congregation go from the typical religious crowd on Sunday. People started coming. Our youth group more than doubled in no time. Youth started speaking out to their friends and in their classes. The youth leader staretd reading some boks by Morris and staretd teaching about reasons for faith.

I would suggest that you buy some books by Henry Morris and any of the staff at ICR and let your husband read them. They will appeal to him if he is a scientist especially if he is interested in geology. Their website is http://www.icr.org/

They also have some great videos too. The one I especially like is about Mt. St. Helens in Washington. They have some actual footage on that tape.

 

[Phillip]

Hey, gb