Four Profs Leaving SWBTS

[Bible-boy]

That last link to the Star article was very interesting. I sure recognize some of the names associated with this new venture. It was enlightening to see that Russell Dilday has been named as the unpaid Chancellor of the new school.

I hope that Rev. Jim Denison was talking about technical issues regarding distance education when he said:

'It's going to be so hard to convince people that this is not about Paige [Patterson], it's not about Southwestern,' Denison said. 'It's about a new kind of theological education.'[emphasis mine]

I hope he was not indicating that the school would be teaching Neo(new)-Orthodox Theology. I hope that the new school does not plan to model its doctrinal stance on that of the Richmond Theological Seminary (started by professors who left SEBTS in the early 90s when Dr. Patterson first came here).

I don't know much (nothing really) about these four professor's theology. Can any of you Texans tell us if they consider themselves to be biblical inerrantists?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by BibleboyII:
I hope that Rev. Jim Denison was talking about technical issues regarding distance education when he said: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />'It's going to be so hard to convince people that this is not about Paige [Patterson], it's not about Southwestern,' Denison said. 'It's about a new kind of theological education.'[emphasis mine]

I hope he was not indicating that the school would be teaching Neo(new)-Orthodox Theology.</font>[/QUOTE]He's talking about teaching/training methods. They want to make a seminary education more useful and relevant for those who are planning to serve churches.

I hope that the new school does not plan to model its doctrinal stance on that of the Richmond Theological Seminary (started by professors who left SEBTS in the early 90s when Dr. Patterson first came here).

Whether one believes that would be a good thing or a bad thing, there is no reason to believe that this new seminary is going to model any other seminary.

 

[Jimmy C]

BibleBoy

All the professors at SWBTS signed the BFM 2000, I know these men to all be men of integrity. If they were not inerrantists they would not have signed.

I do know that the BH Carroll Institute has been in the works for a long time. There is no way that this could have been a knee jerk reaction to the hiring of Patterson. Although there is no doubt that the the hiring of Patterson has helped to move the process along.

 

[go2church]

Pope Paige is against any forward thinking when it comes to seminary training. He thinks that everyone should pack up and move to the campus and go to school for three or four years where they can be "influenced" the godly men (of course no women) teaching at the school.

The Carroll Institute is going to be, in concept anyway, a great thing for those interested being prepared for ministry.

 

[bt]

go2church,
Your "Pope Paige" comment, in my opinion, was mean spirited. The only thing I can pick up from your post is that you disagree with his biblical stance. Could you please explain why you have a problem w/ him -and if you agree with women teaching men theology.

 

[Jimmy C]

BT

I will address one of your concerns. There is no prohibition in the bible about women teaching theology, in fact Priscilla taught Appolos a bit of theology, and Phillips daughters preached. An argument can be made that women should not be pastors, but many staunch conservatives (even on this board) dont have a problem with women preaching from time to time, as long as they are not the senior pastor.

Pattersons problem is he seems to be turning the seminary into a church and is stretching a biblical prohibition against women pastors into women teachers in the school of theology. A seminary is not a church, it is an educational institution, albeit one that trains pastors. One point of fact, SWBTS has no women theology professors, they have a woman history professor, and a woman hebrew professor, they just happen to teach in the school of theology. Patterson supposedly has no problems with the women in the EM school, or school of Music - pastors do take course work in the EM school.

One other interesting note, the history department has now been decimated at SWBTS, they had four when they stated this academic year, two were not offered tenure and will be leaving at the end of the year, one is now going to BH Carroll. Only Paul Greitz is left, wouldnt you like to be a PhD student in history right now?

 

[TomVols]

Just because someone signs a statement, doesn't mean they will teach in accordance with it. The mods and liberals gloated about signing the Abstract at SBTS and SEBTS and then teaching in apposition, if you will.

The "Pope Paige" comment is out of line. Dr. Patterson was one of the drafters of the Point Clear Accord, which pioneered the SBC seminaries' venture into theological education via the internet. If Paige is so backward, why did he hire minorities while at SEBTS?

I admit, I'm no great fan of Paige. But I am a fan of integrity. It's a shame his critics have to jettison theirs in order to make a point.

 

[TomVols]

From the website listed above:

B. H. Carroll Theological Institute is a free-standing, independently financed community of Christian scholars, with a self-perpetuating board of trustees.

This means "we want our own treehouse. You can't come in if we don't like you."

It affirms those articles of Christian faith and practice which have been most surely held and expressed in historic Baptist principles and practices.

Wonderful! It will adopt the Philadelphia or LBCF as its doctrinal statement, it will be Calvinistic and teach inerrancy! Where do I sign?

 

[DeanPastor]

Pope Paige is against any forward thinking when it comes to seminary training.

Well, let me jump in here...

What a idiotic statement...Do you have any earthly idea how uninformed you must be? Do you have any idea how misguided this opinion is. You may not agree with Patterson... and I dont agree with everythng he says or does...but to accuse him of being basicaly backwards or at least stuck...well you need to get educated my friend. By the way...if you can show us why he is not forward thinking in theological education we would welcome the chance to be enlightened...and I will eat a heapen helpen of crow

 

[Jacob]

Originally posted by go2church:
Pope Paige is against any forward thinking when it comes to seminary training. He thinks that everyone should pack up and move to the campus and go to school for three or four years where they can be "influenced" the godly men (of course no women) teaching at the school.

Only a fool would say this. The type of fool that equates solid fundamental doctrine as non forward thinking.

Jacob.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by DeanPastor:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Pope Paige is against any forward thinking when it comes to seminary training.

Well, let me jump in here...

What a idiotic statement...Do you have any earthly idea how uninformed you must be? Do you have any idea how misguided this opinion is. You may not agree with Patterson... and I dont agree with everythng he says or does...but to accuse him of being basicaly backwards or at least stuck...well you need to get educated my friend. By the way...if you can show us why he is not forward thinking in theological education we would welcome the chance to be enlightened...and I will eat a heapen helpen of crow </font>[/QUOTE]Any Christian who does the work of God is backward and idiotic. He worships the God who has existed before time began and he is in obedience to the God of antiquity who was before time. Anyone who worships the God who is and make disciples is viewed as stupid by those who are perishing.

Several months I wrote to Dr. Patterson and he answered me with the most helpful advice I could have been given. I don't always agree with his theology but neither do others agree with me.So I must give him grace just as I hope he would me. My theology is based on where I am in my walk with God now. I am still learning. When I look back there are some things that I do not agree with that I once believed either.

 

[DeanPastor]

Any Christian who does the work of God is backward and idiotic. He worships the God who has existed before time began and he is in obedience to the God of antiquity who was before time. Anyone who worships the God who is and make disciples is viewed as stupid by those who are perishing.

Well....I Agree...dont know what that has to do with this thread, but I agree

 

[Jimmy C]

I dont know how successful the BH Carroll Institue will be, and it may be 10-15 years before we know what model of seminary education works best. The model we are using now, and the one that Paige Patterson is committed to was developed 100 years ago. The model that the BH Carroll Institue is exploring is new and cutting edge. We may be in an era where the time and cost to uproot family to travel to a brick and mortar seminary is too much for many potential students. The opportunity to study at one of many centers via the internet, local professors and travelling professors may give potential students the opportunity that they never would have otherwise had.

Many of you blasted the comment about Pope Paige, and I agree that comment was not in the best of taste - but none of you jumped on the comment that our seminary professors signed the BFM2000 and did not really mean it. I know several of these professors, some of them truly struggled with signing, and if in good consience they could not sign it they would not have. Some could not and left, those that did taught in accordance.

 

[Jimmy C]

I need to proof read better - those that stayed taught in accordance with the BFM2000

 

[go2church]

Well. seems as though I have touched a bit of a nerve..a fool, idiot, uninformed and out of touch. Can you feel the love!

How about I let Pope Paige speak for himself. Quoted from the Southern Baptist of Texas newspaper called the Southern Baptist Texan dated November 3, 2003, page 2, article titled "SWBTS trustees affirm offering for seminaries".

"When the day comes that you train your cardiac surgeons" and "the United States SEAL team is trained on an extension campus by means of electronic media, then I'm ready to do it in a seminary."

In training students for three years on campus. Patterson envisioned graduating students who "will not fail, will be morally upright, are not ging to embarrass the church of God, will not run off with a secretary or shack up with a counseling victim, and will not abscond with funds." Rather, a Southwestern student should have his "heart sold out to evangellism and world missions," he said. I can't do that by the internet. Nobody can. Let's don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg," Patterson said prompting applause from the trustees.

Seems as though Pope Paige doesn't have much faith in the ability of the local church to train morally upright and missions minded people to serve the kingdom of God.

Now how would you like your crow, baked or chicken fried!?

 

[Speedpass]

I'd like to know if this new Carroll Institute will affect enrollments, programs, etc, at Truett(Baylor) and Logsdon(Hardin-Simmons) in any way?!?

 

[Daniel David]

Luther Rice Seminary has been doing the non-residence schooling for about 20 years now. This new school isn't doing anything unheard of and certainly is not innovative.

My prediction is that it is going to be just another theological refugee camp for disgruntled professors. Funny how Texas is full of those (baylor, truett, etc.). Now the disgruntled will fight the disgruntled. Hilarious.

 

[Jimmy C]

DD

Just got a bit more info on the BH Carroll Institute, it will not be a distance learning school per se, as Luther Rice is. SWBTS has PhD graduates scattered across the country and other countries as well. The idea is to utilize these men and women in 100 or more teaching churches - as well as the distance learning. Students will then be able to put into practice what they are learning in seminary, right there in their local church, with the pastors of those churches as mentors and guides - with out dirupting lives to move to another city or state.

There is risk involved for the men and women starting the Carroll Institute, but starting our SBC seminaries was a risky proposition risk once upon a time as well. But it has a real chance to impact lives across the county. My guess is that there will actually be a relativly small number of Texans as a percentage of the student body after a few years. It all depends on the churches that sign up to be the Teaching Churches, and where they are located.

I dont look for the Carroll Institute to have much of an impact on Truett, Logsden or even SWBTS at first. If their concept proves effective however, those seminaries will have to change or die.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Am not SBC but did work at FBC Dallas (which is an independent sort of SBC at best!!)

IF professors would not sign fidelity to the BFM2000 then they have genuine theological issues. I personally don't think it goes far enough; but for some to say they could not sign but would teach by it is ludicrous.

Last time I read it, James reminds me that "a double-minded man is unstable in everything he does".

I am glad they had the integrity to leave and "do their own thing". I have a son who is interested in SWBTS and if he turns out ANYTHING like Patterson I would be pleased.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Luther Rice Seminary has been doing the non-residence schooling for about 20 years now. This new school isn't doing anything unheard of and certainly is not innovative.

That's certainly very dismissive of a school that has not yet revealed its full program or implemented its plan...