I am sorry if this is in the wrong area or if I am rehashing an old debate but:
Who are correct the cessessionists or the non-cessessionists?
Regards,
Richard Sherratt
Gifts of the Holy Ghost
Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by richardsherratt, Jun 22, 2004.
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Neither the cessationists nor the charismatics are right! There put that in your pipe and smoke it!
Yours in Christ
Matt -
Regards,
Richard Sherratt -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
My take is that the I Cor 12 gifts are for today - because despite the cessationist interpretation of ch 13 this is really a bit of eisegesis on their part. However, I don't believe that 'tongues' as practised by many charismatics and pentes are Biblical and I don't believe in the Finneyite-Pentecostal 'Second Blessing'/subsequence pneumatology as this likewise is unknown in Scripture
Yours in Christ
Matt -
I believe the cessationists are right and I don't have to appeal to 1 Cor 13 for it. The purpose for sign gifts has passed and therefore the need has. Therefore, the gift has.
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cessationists
Might I ask for a definition to this term without seeming too blonde ? :D -
If cessationism is correct, then the Scripture in James 5:14-15 is wrong.
James 5:14-15 "is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him annointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has commited sins they shall be forgiven him".
The Cessationists teach that God can not and does not heal people today. That is why I oppose them. Not to mention that in a circumstance like the above, I had been in a bad car accident and had a huge lump on my head. I asked for prayer and I testify to you truthfully, as I was prayed for, that lump dissapeared. I had to go and cancel the insurance that was paying for my time off work and actually return to work.
That said, no doubt there are plenty of people that have had prayer and have not been healed. Yet that is up to the Lord, who He heals and who He takes to be with Him. Yet to state in Cessationist church that He does not heal anyone today is a misrepresentation of Scripture. -
Either way, we do not believe that God cannot or does not heal today. He certainly does. YOu have to remember as well that many unbelievers with no faith are also healed, showing that it is not some kind of miraculous laying on of hands that is doing the healing. Whatever the cause of healing, God is behind it.
Lea, A cessationist believes that the sign gifts (tongues, miracles, healing, revelation) have ceased with the closing of the canon. A non-cessationist believes that they have not ceased. Of the latter, there are different varieties. -
Regards,
Richard Sherratt -
Yes, sign gifts were given to verify the authenticity of the messsage in a time when Scripture was not complete (Heb 2:2; 1 Cor 14; Acts 8; !cts 10). Today, we have the completed Scripture; we no longer need signs to verify what the truth is. We need only comparison with Scripture.
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what about non-sign gifts?
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Non-sign gifts are never under discussion in the cessation/non-cessation debate. Everyone that I know of agree that non-sign gifts (or service gifts they are sometimes called) are continuing. They served a different purpose ... that of building up the body.
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The service gifts are typically not "instantaneously bestowed." They are innate abilities used for the building up of the body. For instance, someone with the gift of teaching is a good teacher, whether or not they use it in the church. Someone with the gift of mercy is a very kind person, whether or not it is used in the church. I would not argue that a service gift is never bestowed on a person after salvation, but it is not miraculous in nature and therefore, we would never know.
Many, if not all, gifts have to be developed as Paul told Timothy.
The point of cessationism is that service gifts continue to function in the church, whether innnate or bestowed. Sign gifts do not. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Yours in Christ
Matt -
Sorry, Matt, little miscitation there. It is Hebrews 2:4
Hebrews 2:4 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
The "testifying with" refers to the messasge of the so great salvation, unknown in the OT, first spoken in Christ, confirmed to the first century believers by those who heard him, and communicated to us with authority in teh NT. The first century believers knew what the "testifiers" were saying was true because of the sign gifts. Prior to the completed canon, the sign gifts were the testimony of God about the authority of the message. We know that the testimony is true because of Scripture.
Acts 8 and 10-11 both show signs gifts in reference to the gospel message being not just for the Jews but for all. Acts 8 does not specifically mention the sign gifts but Acts 10-11 do in teh same context and give us insight in "receiving the Holy Spirit" in Acts 8. That ties right in with 1 Cor 14 where tongues are a sign, not for those who believe, but for those who do not believe. What did not they not believe? It was not the gospel. The people who do not believe the gospel are confused by tongues; they say you are mad. The ones who "believe not" are those who do not believe that the gospel is for all the nations (cf. v. 21). The spreading of the gospel to the nations was part of the judgment on Jews. Some Jews did not believe that the gospel was for others. So in Acts 8, the apostles go to confirm that Samaritan believers were welcome. In Acts 10, you see the sign gifts as explicitly confirming that Gentiles were welcome in the body.
Since we have the completed canon, it is clear that all are welcome. That the gospel is not just for the Jews, but that all are one in Christ's body. The canon tells us that; the sign gifts told them that. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
OK, I see your logic and the coherence of your argument, and I see the use of the past tense in Hebrews 2:4, but I still maintain that you are at best inferring or implying your doctrine from Scripture; I think that something as important as this controversy would have been explicitly set out in Scripture. And it ain't. Peter in Acts 2 addresing the Jerusalem crowd quotes from Joel and makes no reference to a ceasing of what is happening there; in fact just the opposite - "in the Last Days" (in which we are still living) etc.
Yours in Christ
Matt -
* Gifts with a Capital G = Miraculosuly, instantaneously bestowed.
* gifts with a small g = innate potential in all humans saved or lost.
4 Possibilities
1. Sign Gifts and Service Gifts are current.
2. Sign Gifts ceased, Service Gifts continue.
3. Sign Gifts and Service Gifts ceased
4. service gifts always possessed and then blessed by God when developed and used by saved people.
I put myself squarely in 3 and 4.
Is #2 a cessationist?
If so, would that make me a hypercessationist?
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It seems that in Acts 2, Peter is explaining what is happening at Pentecost as partly the fulfillment of the Joel prophecy:
Interesting discussion. We are students of the Bible for life!
I am definitely an amateur in this area. -
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