Hi DHK! Please see my reply to your questions in faith Received part 2!
Now to this ...
God cannot tempt others to sin, nor can He be actually tempted to Sin!
So h does know all thoughts in all beings, but God can reserve right to exercise His Determinitive/permissive Will at all times!
God Controls Hearts and Thoughts as He Says in His Word
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by preacher4truth, Jun 21, 2011.
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For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. (Psalms 139:4)
How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! (Psalms 139:17)
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. (Psalms 139:23-24)
David talks about two things here:
1. He speaks of God's thoughts toward him.
2. He speaks of God who knows his thoughts.
See the difference. God is a God of love who cares for his children (139:17). He is not this all-controlling bully who puts every thought, good and evil, into our minds. He is a God of love who desires a two way relationship with his children.
Secondly, God knows my thoughts David says. They are not God's thoughts, but David's own thoughts, and God knows about them. He is omniscient. God did not put David's thoughts there. They are of his own making. Then David prays that God would search his heart to see if their would be any wicked "way" (thought) in him. Why? That he could confess it, and then that he could go on and be led in the everlasting paths of God. God is sovereign, yes. But he is not all-controlling. That would make him a monster. -
Hitler is in control = Evil. Because his very nature is evil.
God is in control = Yet He remains Holy and Sovereign and Just, because He can be none other. This is one reason He can, and only He can be righteously a jealous God, but I won't go there as to get you further off track, just a way to help you consider and understand.
Describing Gods Biblical Sovereignty, namely, that He is in control of all things, does not turn Holy God into a monster, nor into a bully. Unfortunately, that is the reaction that comes from those who misunderstand this, or have been confronted with its truth. Jonathan Edwards had the same struggle. To ascribe this to Him is misunderstanding Him. This is His Biblical position. It's all over the Bible.
Let's say God is in control of all things (which he is) how could this make One who is Holy, a bully and a monster? It can't, because it is impossible. But can you answer that succinctly, friend?
Tell me what happens in this world without His determinate counsel, or that He permissively allows to happen? He's is God is He not?
Both of these avenues He uses shows that He in fact is in control, both permissively, because He could step in and change it if He wanted to, but, instead, it (whatever circumstance) is going exactly how He wants it to or permits it to because it is not against His will or plans, then there is the determinative side. So thus, yes, He is in total control.
And again, He does as He wills to whom He wills, and does control hearts and agendas, counsels, turns them to fulfill His purposes.
What is happening now that He is unaware of? Do things all of a sudden occur to God? (I know this is a lot)
Your passages about David having his own thoughts doesn't disprove the Biblical fact He is in control. I appreciate that you are digging for passages, friend, but that doesn't prove that He isn't in control. There is nothing in those passages that does this. The problem here, again, is that you are basing everything off of what you say I said, which, again, I didn't. Thus your passages are addressing the wrong subject.
Until you go back and actually get what I said, you will remain in this cycle.
To say that I am saying He PUTS EVERY thought into man is, well, not what I said.
Thus all your thoughts coming off of this fallacious premise (wht you say I said v. what I actually said) will be perfidious. You haven't grasped the Biblical concept of God that I have shared in here, and choose to continue on this thing that you say I allegedly said.
I've never said what you say I said, brother. Give me a post where I said He puts every thought into mans mind.
-Or-
...lets actually grasp this Biblical concept and start afresh with you debating what I actually did say. And the Scriptures to go along with it. Actually, I'd rather you debate what the Bible says about my God, than what you think I said. You game for this fresh start?
- Gods Blessings to you -
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I sincerely await to debate based on all I've said, with the Scriptures I've used proving what I have actually stated to being theologically accurate.
This back and for "no you didn't" "yes you did" is getting us nowhere.
I just want to be truthfully represented here, and at this time, that is not what is happening brother. Sometimes we say someone said "something" so often, that we actually believe they did.
Let's try this off of what I have actually stated, with the actual Scriptures that go along with it.
Until then you're fighting a theory that I have never espoused, that in fact, you created.
Never have I stated that God puts every thought into our minds. Ever.
Please reread everything I have said. Please understand that you added to my words, and are not quoting me. After this takes place, I would be more than glad to discuss this Biblical portrait of Sovereign God controlling all things, with you.
Did you get the ideology behind the Hitler/God example? God can never be construed as bad, a monster, nor a bully, even though He does control all things, including the hearts of man, because His Nature is perfect and Holy. Thus he can control all things, and this cannot corrupt His incorruptible nature.
I sincerely hope that helps.
- Grace and peace -
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And then after adding words and meanings you went on your rant about it. But, on the wrong subject and on fabricated ideas and misquotes, of course.
I knew you couldn't do it. That's unfortunate.
Your entire premise and base were then false and never addressed the truth expressed in the OP.
Now, let's see if you can actually address what I've actually said.
By the way, since you're starting labeling again. No hyper here, friend. I believe man is responsible. I'm not even a calvinist, although I apply it to me so folks on here ca get my angle of theology. I just happen to belvee ALL of Scripture, not just the parts that scratch ears, or get amens, or agree with a shallow theology that insists proof texts for answers.
- Blessings and peace -
You know, DHK, I have made several attempts to get straight with you, to get you to stop misquoting me, and misrepresenting me, yet you have shown that you really don't want to get along with a brother or try to get along peacably and insist on misquoting.
That is the saddest part of all of this. I have to say that your bad temperment, misquoting and fabricating, along with your attitude, and twisting things is dishonoring to the Kingdom of God. -
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If God controls every thought, how does he control this thought:
I love you.
I LOVE YOU!!!!!
I love you??
I love you!
I love YOU!
One thought. Does God control it? Does God control the thought behind the one statement I make? No, he doesn't. It is my free will. I choose to say what I want; to lose my temper; to worship God; to curse him. God does not control my thoughts. Otherwise the words of James would have no meaning:
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. (James 3:8-10)
If my thoughts are not my own to speak forth, the words of James are written in vain.
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I don't believe it accurate to even say God "allows" us to think evil. What I believe is that God creates us free moral agents with the ability to think our own thoughts. Otherwise man could not be morally responsible for his thoughts or actions.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
God said this sin of sacrificing children did not come into his mind. Then where did this thought originate? It must have originated in the minds of those who committed this sin. This shows men have the ability to form or invent their own thoughts and are therefore not controlled by God. -
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However, how you conclude this is the same thing, well, is typical you Winman. You have serious trouble distinguishing truth from error, and distinguishing the vast difference between what I said, and what DHK says I said.
That I never said God puts every thought into our minds, and instead stated He does control thoughts and hearts and directs them Sovereignly, with given Scripture to prove it, show these are two very separate issues. It's "puts every thought into our minds" v. "He does control mens thoughts, hearts." Two separate issues, DHK's being not only fabrication, but unscriptural, and mine is shown forth in Scripture.
Your quote of scripture to back up whatever theological (undisclosed) stance you have, is so far off, even a Heavens Gate member would have trouble believing you.
"It's not accurate to say God allows us to think evil?" Uh? Really? He doesn't allow us to think evil? Well, I wish that were true. But that is error on your part Winman. He is allowing it right now, isn't He? How do you come up with this stuff? You have got to quit listening to Family Radio!!!
Your proof text is so far off track, that it is almost sad, really. You're using this verse thinking I said what DHK said, that is, falsely accused of saying "God puts every thought into man." I never said God gives us every thought. Thus, you are already going down the trail of DHK, fighting an argumennt I've never stated. See what I'm saying? You're using this vers to fight the argument that God puts every thought into man. You've gotten yourself confused again.
I seriously think you get confused really easily. I worry about you.
In the Faith Received thread, you rebuked me, in a statement, by stating something I already believe, then then rebuking me for it, saying I don't believe what I do believe. Hmm. I already believed what you said I didn't. Therefore, even in that thread, you were fighting against the wrong thing!!! Go look, I think you only had one reply, and I replied to that. You should go take a look see.
Seriously, I am worried about you, you are getting really confused brother. PM me if I can assist you in some way.
I won't read your response bro, because you will go off on so many Avenues, Cul De Sacs, Streets, Lanes, Alleys, and Blvd's and never really answer it, and by time you're done we'll be talking Noahs Ark somehow.
PM me if I can help you.
- God Bless -
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Did you say that God controlled our thoughts in your quote? Yes or no?
Did I misquote you when I put that particular quote in quotes? Yes or no? -
He said that I said God puts (pay attention) EVERY thought into our mind. He added two (dos?) words changing the entire meaning.
I certainly don't believe He puts every thought in our mind.
Now get it straight Winman.
Now, Winman, does God put thoughts in your mind? Does he put every thought in your mind?
See? -
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God does not control our thoughts, though he certainly can convince (win over), persuade, or influence our thoughts. But what we think is always under our control.
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