Have Southern Baptists Strayed?

[Bro Tony]

Bro. Tony,

You are not implying that God would have sinned or been unjust even if he did send Satan to test / tempt Job, are you? Go to the end of the book where Job questioned God much the same way you seem to be and how he answered him. It might be relevant to your questions of God's justice and holiness today.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph I don't question God at all. I believe Job's problem was one of perception. God did not tempt Job to sin, God did not sin against Job. He still does not do that toward us. Because something happens in my life that does not seem good to me that does not mean God is tempting me or sinning against me, that would be impossible.

God is not the author of sin or evil. James says that every good and perfect gift comes to us by God, in whom there is no varience of turning.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

As far as I know, it is always used to refer to the ones who are saved.

Joseph Botwinick

If this is so this shoots a hole in those calvinist who say some are elect to salvation and some are elect to damnation.

Bro Tony

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Job 1:10-12

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Obviously, the point is that if only the elect are saved and those who are not elect are not saved, it is purely the sovereign will of God, and has nothing to do with Arminian Free will Choice. There is no choice. If you are the elect of God, you will be saved. If not, then you won't.

So you are saying that God had created some who are not "elect of God" and therefore damned to hell, with no hope of salvation? Was Christ's death on the cross not enough to pay for their sins?

Did God create Adam and Eve to sin in the garden and bring sin into the world, or did they have a "free will" and chose themselves to disobey God and sin?

I believe those who accept God's free gift of salvation become part of the elect, and those who in their "free will" reject the Holy Spirit and God's free gift of salvation don't become part of the elect. I believe that God already knows who will choose and who will reject, but he makes the same offer to everyone.

I also believe that God in his awseome forekowledge knows what would have happened had Adam and Eve chose to obed God and not sin.

 

[Bro Tony]

Job 1:10-12

Your point? How does this speak different from what I said?

Bro Tony

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Obviously, the point is that if only the elect are saved and those who are not elect are not saved, it is purely the sovereign will of God, and has nothing to do with Arminian Free will Choice. There is no choice. If you are the elect of God, you will be saved. If not, then you won't.

So you are saying that God had created some who are not "elect of God" and therefore damned to hell, with no hope of salvation? Was Christ's death on the cross not enough to pay for their sins?</font>[/QUOTE]JGrubbs,

Are you a universalist? What about all the people who have died without Jesus so far? Was Christ's death on the cross enough to pay for their sins? It would seem to me that if you have a problem with the doctrine of the elect, then your problem is with the sovereign God and his word (the Bible), not with me.

I believe those who accept God's free gift of salvation become part of the elect, and those who in their "free will" reject the Holy Spirit and God's free gift of salvation don't become part of the elect. I believe that God already knows who will choose and who will reject, but he makes the same offer to everyone.

I also believe that God in his awseome forekowledge knows what would have happened had Adam and Eve chose to obed God and not sin. [/QUOTE]

Would you please share with us your salvation experience? I wonder who you are counting on for your salvation: your free will choice, or a sovereign God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Job 1:10-12

Your point? How does this speak different from what I said?

Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]Who sent Satan to Job and for what purpose?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JGrubbs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Obviously, the point is that if only the elect are saved and those who are not elect are not saved, it is purely the sovereign will of God, and has nothing to do with Arminian Free will Choice. There is no choice. If you are the elect of God, you will be saved. If not, then you won't.

So you are saying that God had created some who are not "elect of God" and therefore damned to hell, with no hope of salvation? Was Christ's death on the cross not enough to pay for their sins?</font>[/QUOTE]JGrubbs,

Are you a universalist? What about all the people who have died without Jesus so far? Was Christ's death on the cross enough to pay for their sins? It would seem to me that if you have a problem with the doctrine of the elect, then your problem is with the sovereign God and his word (the Bible), not with me.

I believe those who accept God's free gift of salvation become part of the elect, and those who in their "free will" reject the Holy Spirit and God's free gift of salvation don't become part of the elect. I believe that God already knows who will choose and who will reject, but he makes the same offer to everyone.

I also believe that God in his awseome forekowledge knows what would have happened had Adam and Eve chose to obed God and not sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Would you please share with us your salvation experience? I wonder who you are counting on for your salvation: your free will choice, or a sovereign God.

Joseph Botwinick [/QUOTE]


No, I'm not a universalist. I don't believe everyone will be saved. I believe that only those that are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit are able to accept the free gift of Salvation, and I believe that those who reject the Holy Spirit's conviction will reject God's salvation and die in their sins and burn in Hell.

I believe it's God's will that ALL be saved, and that NONE should perish, but we have to repent of our sins and accept His free gift of salvation. When I repented of my sins at the age of 17 and accepted his gift of salvation, I made him the Lord of my life, and there is nothing I or anyone else can do to take me out of His sovereign hands.

You never answered my question, do you believe that God is the author of sin, and created Adam and Eve as a way of bringing sin into the world, or do you believe they made a choice to disobey God and sin in the garden?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JGrubbs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Obviously, the point is that if only the elect are saved and those who are not elect are not saved, it is purely the sovereign will of God, and has nothing to do with Arminian Free will Choice. There is no choice. If you are the elect of God, you will be saved. If not, then you won't.

So you are saying that God had created some who are not "elect of God" and therefore damned to hell, with no hope of salvation? Was Christ's death on the cross not enough to pay for their sins?</font>[/QUOTE]JGrubbs,

Are you a universalist? What about all the people who have died without Jesus so far? Was Christ's death on the cross enough to pay for their sins? It would seem to me that if you have a problem with the doctrine of the elect, then your problem is with the sovereign God and his word (the Bible), not with me.

I believe those who accept God's free gift of salvation become part of the elect, and those who in their "free will" reject the Holy Spirit and God's free gift of salvation don't become part of the elect. I believe that God already knows who will choose and who will reject, but he makes the same offer to everyone.

I also believe that God in his awseome forekowledge knows what would have happened had Adam and Eve chose to obed God and not sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Would you please share with us your salvation experience? I wonder who you are counting on for your salvation: your free will choice, or a sovereign God.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]No, I'm not a universalist. I don't believe everyone will be saved. I believe that only those that are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit are able to accept the free gift of Salvation, and I believe that those who reject the Holy Spirit's conviction will reject God's salvation and die in their sins and burn in Hell.
[/QUOTE]

So, who are these people relying on for their salvation? By your theory, they are relying on God (giving them the conviction) and then on themselves (willingly recieveing the salvation). Calvinists believe salvation is totally from God and not of man.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

I believe salvation is totally from God, but man must repent and "turn from their wicked ways" in order to accept Christ as their personaly Saviour. I believe that God knows what who will accept the gift, and who will reject it, and in his awesome knowledge that only He can have, knows will happen if someone accepts Christ, and what will happen if they reject Christ.

I believe Calvin created his doctrine as an attempt to better understand the mind of our sovereign God, which our human minds were never meant to fully understand.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Your Catholic doctrine of Free will work salvation makes it a work of God and man. You may not realize it, but you are relying on yourself to accept the salvation.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

I don't consider what I explained to be as you say, the "Catholic doctrine of Free will work salvation". I have studied the whole TULIP doctrine, and have many Calvanist friends, we will have to agree to disagree on that issue.

You still haven't answered my question, do you believe that God is the author of sin, and created Adam and Eve as a way of bringing sin into the world, or do you believe they made a choice to disobey God and sin in the garden?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I did not answer your question because I do not know.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Old Regular, you will actually find Scriptural usage of both.

Eph. 1 mentions at least three.

That isn't the point at all. Covenantalists have invented three covenants of which Scripture NEVER mentions.

Which three?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
As an old preacher on the radio used to say, "I believe in biblical predestination!" Those who say Jesus only died for a fraction of the world (limited atonement) can't support their answer with the consensus of Scripture. And, BTW, what do you think Peter's "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father means"? We're elect according to foreknowledge, folks, and what this foreknowledge is regarding, we know for certain it is not works, and believing in Jesus is not "works", folks, contrary to popular Calvinist preaching. Salvation is nowhere found in Scripture to be compulsory, but rather, as one of my favorite 19th commentators says, "suasory", where sinners are persuaded by the Holy Spirit, not compulsed. Sure, God loved Jacob and hated Esau, so what? National election is different than personal election, as millions of Jews in the past who went straight to hell would tell us. I love "Calvinists" anyway, love to pick apart their faulty system like a FALCON! HAHAHAHA!

Yours,

Bluefalcon

Something that is dead cannot be persuaded.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Well I was beginning to think I was the only board member who felt this way! Thanks Guys!

To demand a person must be a follower of some mere man's teachings or they aren't saved is very, very wrong in my reading of scripture! I'm not a follower of Calvin. I'm a follower of Jesus.

This discussion has degenerated into a discussion about Calvin. The question posed in starting this discussion was whether Southern Baptists had strayed from the historic doctrines on

1. Election
2. Regeneration
3. The General Resurrection
4. The General Judgment

The name Calvin apparently raises hackles on people so why not discuss what Scripture teaches about the 4 mentioned Items and the current position of Southern Baptists.

Diane

I am not picking on you this just seemed to be a convenient place to ask people to address the primary question.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
It really is a matter of letting the clear teaching of Scripture speak for itself. The matter in dealing with hyper Calvisnist always comes down to their accusation that I don't believe in the sovereignty of God, ridiculous. It does not take anything away from the sovereignty of God to believe, as the Bible clearly shows, that God created man with the ability to accept or reject His wonderful offer of salvation in Jesus. And there is no credit given to someone who receives salvation from the only One who can give it. Are we sinners, yes without any hope without the sacrifice of Christ. Can we come to God of our own accord, no way, the Spirit brings us to the Savior (John 16). Did Jesus die for just the elect, no (1 John 2:2). Does that mean all people will eventually be saved, no only those who believe and receive (John 1). How long will that salvation last, forever (John 3:16). Does God forknow who would and who would not receive His Son, yes (Eph 1).

I have expressed this before and will again, the day I meet a Calvinist who is not one of the elect I will seriously begin to consider that all five points are valid. Wait, no I won't, because I don't consider them to be biblically supported.

Bro Tony

Can you explain why some people respond to the Gospel Call and others don't, particularly since Scripture teaches that we are all dead in trespassed and sins? [Ephesians 2:1]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
I don't consider what I explained to be as you say, the "Catholic doctrine of Free will work salvation". I have studied the whole TULIP doctrine, and have many Calvanist friends, we will have to agree to disagree on that issue.

You still haven't answered my question, do you believe that God is the author of sin, and created Adam and Eve as a way of bringing sin into the world, or do you believe they made a choice to disobey God and sin in the garden?

I will give it a try.

Scripture teaches that Adam and Eve were created upright or righteous. [Ecclesiastes 7:29]. Adam and Eve were also given a free will. In fact they were the only two humans who can be said to honestly have had a completely free will. Yet Eve by her on free will yielded to temptation. Adam of his own free will chose to sin.

1 Timothy 2:13, 14
13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Did God know that Adam and Eve would rebel against Him? Obviously, but that does not make God the author of sin.

 

[Bro Tony]

Who sent Satan to Job and for what purpose?

Joseph Botwinick

Who sent or allowed? That Satan attacked and tempted Job is clear, it is also clear that God is not responsible for the temptation that Satan brought against Job. This brings a huge question to the table, since God in all powerful, why doesn't He just destroy Satan and get it over with. He has not, but that does not make Him the author of Sin. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

Can you explain why some people respond to the Gospel Call and others don't, particularly since Scripture teaches that we are all dead in trespassed and sins? [Ephesians 2:1]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Verse 2 explains verse 1, to be dead is to walk according to the course of this world... This does not infer that a person cannot make a choice to respond to God's call. Again, God calls man responds or resists.

Can you explain the word "whosoever" in John 3:16? If there are only the elect that can, whosoever is meaningless. Not only is it meaningless it is the height of cruelty to offer someone something that they can't possibly receive. We punish children for teasing others in such a way.

I know from the 5 point Calvinists perspective that anyone that does not buy into their way of thinking is Arminian. You all believe it is all or nothing. That you cannot see it any way but your own and only through the box of calvinistic theology does not mean you are right and others wrong.

Bro Tony