Have Southern Baptists Strayed?

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
You would not, therefore, fellowship with that body of believers in their Church because they might believe the same as that Calvinistic pastor. Either way, my point was that nobody on this thread said anything remotely close to not fellowshipping with others over this issue until your post. It almost seemed to me as if you were trying to imply otherwise.

Joseph Botwinick

Fellowship as in sitting under a preacher I felt was not scriptural? I will not 'sit under' a pastor who preaches what I feel is wrong.

BTW... I wouldn't sit under a pastor who says you have to pray to receive the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't sit under a pastor who said abortion is okay. I wouldn't sit under a pastor who said you could lose your salvation... Would YOU?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Diane,

Read my whole post. You have once again missed the point of the post.

Either way, my point was that nobody on this thread said anything remotely close to not fellowshipping with others over this issue until your post. It almost seemed to me as if you were trying to imply otherwise.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[dianetavegia]

Joseph, YOU are the one adding to MY remark. I said I would not 'sit under' (in case you do not understand... remain the member of, join a church) where the pastor preaches something I feel is not scriptural.

Quit adding to my words. It almost seems to me, to use YOUR words, that you are implying something I never said.

Would you bring your son up in a church where the preacher taught that Calvinism is not biblical? Would you drive home each week telling him to ignore what Pastor X said?

BTW.... off school this week?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

1. No I wouldn't. But, that isn't really the point of my post anyway, so the question is really irrelevant.

2. No. I am at home with my sick son. He had a fever of 101 today. He is down to 99.5 though. Thanks for your concern though.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[dianetavegia]

Whoops! I must have misread your post or you edited while I was breaking up an itsy bitsy spider fight!

I think you now say no to the below issue.

You would have your young child sit under a preacher who taught something you believed was wrong and then tell him to ignore the pastor?

Why would your child believe anything the pastor said if Daddy is telling him the preacher says wrong things sometimes?

I'd find a church that preached what I believe and join there. We left a teeny tiny SBC church when the pastor admitted to me that no 'ni@@er's' would be allowed to join HIS church! My husband went with me to meet with him about his remark and he said 'I tell you what... This Saturday night, I'll take you down to little Nairobi (a black area of Atlanta) and give you a bunch of tracts to hand out to the prostitutes and druggies and we'll see how much you love the ni@@ers when I pick you up'. We told him we'd be leaving but would just say our family needed a different atmosphere.

I would not sit under a pastor who hates people because of their skin color and yet the couple who is our best friends as a couple remain there. They were both born and raised in that church.

Hope Issac feels better soon. The public schools here had off all last week for their SECOND fall break.

Diane

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Jacob is feeling better. Thank You.

As far as sitting under a preacher is concerned, I don't think you will ever find a pastor who agrees 100% with what everyone in the congregation believes (unless he is the dictator of the Church and they are his little clones). However, there are some issues that are more important than others. Eschatological issues would be one such area that I wouldn't refuse fellowship over. However, the sovereignty of God and issues of salvation are very important to me. Social justice is also important to me, and I think, also to God (see the minor prophets for some examples of this teaching). There may very well be a time when I will disagree with the pastor over a relatively minor issue. This is not going to cause me to leave the Church however. It may be well, also, if the pastor can correct me Biblically and teach me something or vice versa.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[dianetavegia]

I would think that predestination vs freewill would be a major concern as would OSAS. We visited a Calvinistic church when we first moved here for several weeks. We asked the pastor why he did lessons/ taught, instead of preaching and why he had no altar call and he explained about the churches move from all ties with the GBA and SBC. Nick was 4. We liked the pastor as a person and Jim has done some volunteer recordings for his church at Christmas for their outdoor nativity (which we attend) but we couldn't join there because of what we felt WAS important issues!

Understand, Joseph, if we came to spend the weekend with you, we'd worship in your church but would not 'sit under' as in choosing as Pastor, a man we felt was wrong on key salvinic issues, etc.

I mentioned on the thread, 'Would you allow an evolutionist to teach S/S' that we refused to move up to our age groupin Sunday School a few years ago because that teacher believes in abortion in the case of incest or rape and we do not. We met with him, told him why we couldn't join his class and remain on very friendly terms. He was really thankful for our honesty. I get great big hugs from him every Sunday and we email during the week neat things we've come across. His wife teaches the 3 year olds next door to my class and we share coloring pictures, crafts, extra snacks and I love them both but I could not sit under his leadership because I feel that is a very important issue for Christians.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I agree with you Diane on that point. I could not put myself and my family under the leadership of a pastor who teaches the Catholic works salvation of Arminianism.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[dianetavegia]

Exactly! Like I said before, we agree with a good number of Calvin's teachings but disagree on what I perceive to be the most important teaching (Pre-Election). We agree with one or two of the Arminian teachings but not that you can lose your salvation or earn your salvation by good works.

I guess that's why labels bother those of us who are neither. I've actually had a preacher on this board tell me I'm either a Calvinist and don't know it or I'm not saved.

My reply that my Bible didn't say 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and John Calvin and you will be saved' made one young female VERY mad!

I also had a missionary tell me I quote too much scripture in my replies tho!

 

[Bro Tony]

Have you ever read the book of Job? What if God did tempt someone with sin? Would you say that God is unfair, unholy, and unjust? Perhaps, you should spend some time reading God's response to Job when he questioned God's justice. It is close to the end of the book of Job.

I am back for a little bit. Yes Joseph I have read and taught extensively on the book of Job. You are not inferring that this book teaches that God does evil. You are not saying it teaches that tempts with sin? The book of James clearly teaches that God does not sin nor tempt with sin. So there is no what if God did, it is not possible.

Bro Tony

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Bro. Tony,

You are not implying that God would have sinned or been unjust even if he did send Satan to test / tempt Job, are you? Go to the end of the book where Job questioned God much the same way you seem to be and how he answered him. It might be relevant to your questions of God's justice and holiness today.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[dianetavegia]

Luke 22: 31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Calvininsts always come up with this simplified nonsense: "Who's in the driver's seat for salvation, you or God?" Of course it's God who effects and elects and does everything for salvation. Nevertheless God throughtout history has given choices to people, like Nineveh for example. If the Ninevites hadn't repented, they would've been destroyed forty days later as Jonah prophesied, or God would've been a liar. So the Ninevites were "in the driver's seat" for their own salvation from certain destruction? Nonsense. This kind of stupid simplification does nothing for discussing the facts of Scripture.

Back to the original thread: God does not elect people according to the foreknowledge of their merit deserving election, and with this I totally agree. In a similar way that God was merciful to repentant Ninevites, he is merciful to repentant sinners today. Before time began God was merciful and knew they would repent, but such does not mean he made them repent.

No one comes to God unless God elects and predestines and draws and persuades him, yet nowhere is compulsion an element of individual salvation in Scripture. God elects according to foreknowledge, but no Calvinist or Arminian can scripturally tell us what this foreknowledge is regarding. So we look to other Scriptures where God invites everyone, but not everyone receives; Jesus died to save the world, but especially those who believe. Two choices are evident throughout Scripture: believe and obey for salvation, or disbelieve and keep on disobeying for certain destruction. God in his infinite wisdom and judgment persuades and enables men to be saved without compulsing them to be so.

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
Calvininsts always come up with this simplified nonsense: "Who's in the driver's seat for salvation, you or God?" Of course it's God who effects and elects and does everything for salvation.
Yours,

Bluefalcon

What about people who never are saved? Were they not elected for salvation?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Bluefalcon,

Would you please share your salvation story with us?

Thanks,

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
What about people who never are saved? Were they not elected for salvation?

Scripture is clear that all who are elected will be saved; what is not clear is how God's foreknowledge is used in electing people to salvation, except that election is not according to the foreknowledge of man's merit deserving salvation. People who are not elected are not saved. What kind of silly question is this?

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

[Bro Tony]

Do we find the term "elect" used in the NT to refer to those who are going to be saved or going to be damned? Or is it always used for those who are saved?

Bro Tony

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Obviously, the point is that if only the elect are saved and those who are not elect are not saved, it is purely the sovereign will of God, and has nothing to do with Arminian Free will Choice. There is no choice. If you are the elect of God, you will be saved. If not, then you won't.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
Do we find the term "elect" used in the NT to refer to those who are going to be saved or going to be damned? Or is it always used for those who are saved?

Bro Tony

Logic would tell us that if the elect refers to those who are saved, then the opposite of the elect would be those who are condemned.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

As far as I know, it is always used to refer to the ones who are saved.

Joseph Botwinick