Have Southern Baptists Strayed?

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can you explain why some people respond to the Gospel Call and others don't, particularly since Scripture teaches that we are all dead in trespassed and sins? [Ephesians 2:1]
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Verse 2 explains verse 1, to be dead is to walk according to the course of this world... This does not infer that a person cannot make a choice to respond to God's call. Again, God calls man responds or resists.

Can you explain the word "whosoever" in John 3:16? If there are only the elect that can, whosoever is meaningless. Not only is it meaningless it is the height of cruelty to offer someone something that they can't possibly receive. We punish children for teasing others in such a way.

I know from the 5 point Calvinists perspective that anyone that does not buy into their way of thinking is Arminian. You all believe it is all or nothing. That you cannot see it any way but your own and only through the box of calvinistic theology does not mean you are right and others wrong.

Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]Dead in trespasses and sins means dead in trespasses and sins.

"Whosoever" doesn't mean everyone. The "whosoever" are those who, though spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, were made spiritually alive through the work of the Holy Spirit. Having been made spiritually alive, regenerated, or born from above, they are then given the faith by which they respond to the Gospel Call which, for them, is the "effectual call". [Ephesians 2:1-10]

Jesus Christ puts it very simply in John 6:37 [KJV]; All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Now as far as offering something to someone that they can't accept lets see what Scripture has to say about this. Jesus Christ makes one of His most poignant statements speaking of Jerusalem:

Matthew 23:37[KJV]; O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

By the way, have I ever discussed 5 point Calvinism? I think that I have mentioned Calvinism twice. Once was to quote Spurgeon's remark that Calvinism was a nickname for the Biblical Doctrines of Grace. The second was to request that people discuss the 4 points made in the introduction to this discussion rather than Calvinism.

Also, I don't believe that I have accused anyone of being Arminian. I am simply trying to get a discussion of Southern Baptist theology now and initially.

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture teaches that only those whose names are written in the Book of Life are saved.

Revelation 20:15[KJV]; And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture also tells us that the names in the Book of Life were written before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8[KJV]; The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Whose names were written in the Book of Life? The Elect.

 

[Bluefalcon]

According to Bro. Joe's fatalistic logic, God must have made Adam and Eve sin (because man can't choose to do anything without God's overriding influence) and therefore is the author of sin and evil; he also made Satan sin and is responsible for the reprobate nature of mankind, whom he won't save except the the "elect" that he chose after seemingly blindfolding himself in the everlasting past. But Peter says the elect are elect according to God's foreknowledge, but why say such a thing, if there was nothing in God's foreknowledge that had a part in this blessed election? God gave choices to man before the fall, and gave choices to him after the fall, either to believe and obey, or to disbelieve and keep on disobeying. It defies all my God-made logic that God gives choices to people but has already decided the choices for them and then punishes them for the choices that he himself decided.

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

[Bro Tony]

"Whosoever" doesn't mean everyone. The "whosoever" are those who, though spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, were made spiritually alive through the work of the Holy Spirit. Having been made spiritually alive, regenerated, or born from above, they are then given the faith by which they respond to the Gospel Call which, for them, is the "effectual call". [Ephesians 2:1-10]

Not true. You are reading into the context of the Scripture. Jesus was speaking of His offer of salvation to whosoever will, He was not speaking to those who already had. To say that whosoever doesn't mean everyone is to place your view on this Scripture. The clear point of this verse is that anyone who believes will have everlasting life. There is no whosoever if it is preordain, it would be the elect will have everlasting life. Your quote of Jesus over Jerusalem weakens rather than strengthen your position. Was Jesus speaking empty words, or was He speaking a sad reality? His desire was to gather them, but THEY would not. Jesus is God if He makes only the elect come to Him, then again His statement makes no sense. But because they had to the ability to accept or reject God's Messiah and chose to reject, we see the tragedy of this occurance.

As to my reference to 5 point calvinist, that was a general statement and not intended to be directed at you. I thought when I wrote it I should have put it in another post, but did not do it. But you know it is still alright since I did what I was preordained to do, since I really had no choice in the matter

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

It defies all my God-made logic that God gives choices to people but has already decided the choices for them and then punishes them for the choices that he himself decided.

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Bro Tony

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
It defies all my God-made logic that God gives choices to people but has already decided the choices for them and then punishes them for the choices that he himself decided.

YES!!!

 

[Daniel David]

Calvinist: one who believes it is God's final call as to who is saved

Arminian: one who believes it is man's final call as to whether or not he is saved

I hope this helps.

 

[blackbird]

You know! For a long time I struggled about exactly who God saves---who does God save?? God saves the Elect, of course!! But that term runs deeper than our old finite minds can probe!

But who are the Elect?? In God's infinite knowledge--before the eons of eternity past---He recognized who the Elect are---but---in my limited, finite mind---the Elect are---the "Whosoever will's!" The word from the Word says that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved!

A lost person becomes part of the Elect---when he becomes a "whosoever will"---to study it much beyond this stage----causes my mind to overheat!!

 

[Bro Tony]

Brother Blackbird

Bro Tony

 

[JGrubbs]

There are many things about the mind of our Lord that our human minds were not meant to understand!

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Calvinist: one who believes it is God's final call as to who is saved

Arminian: one who believes it is man's final call as to whether or not he is saved

Biblicist: one who believes it is man's responsibility to respond to the Holy Spirit in faith and obedience to God's gracious gift of salvation, and God's responsibility to effect all aspects of salvation in a person's life. God can't save those who never existed; we can't be saved without God. What's so hard to understand about this?

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

[Daniel David]

By my definitions, which are you bluefalcon?

What your problem in this is that the Spirit does not simply woo. He actively works in the hearts of people to bring them to salvation.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Does God bother convicting those who will not be saved? It seems God convicts the whole world, the elect respond and the unelect don't. Some respond to the truth they are given and are given more truth, others don't. What it all comes back to is the original post on the SBTS abstract principles, which I could sign today, because it is quite biblical that God elects people according to foreknowledge and not based on anyone's merit. What this foreknowledge entails we do not know, so we're arguing in circles. Why God time and again throughout the Bible would urge people, Believe and obey me and be blessed, disbelieve and disobey me and be cursed, makes me think his foreknowledge had something to do with his perfect knowledge of the outcome of his constant merciful interaction with and fair persuasion of mankind throughout all of time. But this is only a human attempt to reconcile the facts of the Bible fairly. Far better than logically saying God is the author of sin and that human prayers to effect outcomes are in essence meaningless and only elect aborted babies may go to heaven, etc., etc., etc.

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

[Daniel David]

You don't answer the question because it would demonstrate your mancentered theology on salvation. You believe that God is the great cosmic cheerleader hoping people get saved.

 

[JGrubbs]

In order to answer your question it would have to be true that every Christian is either Calvinist or Arminian, which is simply not true.

 

[dianetavegia]

Biblicist: one who believes it is man's responsibility to respond to the Holy Spirit in faith and obedience to God's gracious gift of salvation, and God's responsibility to effect all aspects of salvation in a person's life.

I gave Biblicist as an answer a few months ago to the demand I choose either or C/A and it was ignored.

Diane

 

[TC]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It defies all my God-made logic that God gives choices to people but has already decided the choices for them and then punishes them for the choices that he himself decided.

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]So, what do you do with this passage?

Romans 9:14-25
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" (ESV)

 

[dianetavegia]

And what do YOU do with THIS verse?

'For God so love the WORLD, that He gave His only beloved Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life.'

(sorry for the previous error. A 20 month old 'helped' me.)

[ December 01, 2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Dr. Bob]

While issues like free will/eternal security play a MAJOR role (and we hope the SBC will return to its calvinistic roots), PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not turn this thread into a Calv/Armin debate.

It will be moved or closed.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
While issues like free will/eternal security play a MAJOR role (and we hope the SBC will return to its calvinistic roots), PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not turn this thread into a Calv/Armin debate.

It will be moved or closed.

Thank you Dr. Bob! I wanted this to be a discussion about Southern Baptists and their roots, unfortunately it got sidetracked and I probably contributed.