Irresistible Grace

My understanding (to generate light not heat)

D. Irresistible Grace
(1) Efficacious Grace or Calling meaning irresistible for the elect of course the non elect do resist this grace.

*Distinguished from the General Calling out to all people to respond to the gospel (A declaration of the plan of salvation, where the Holy Spirit does its work to convict the world for sin).

Biblically defined total depravity means men left to themselves because dead in sins will not respond to God, on his own he will never seek God. Therefore God initiated by unconditional election, from the foundation of the world (even before), from the mass of humanity under condemnation because of their depravity he chose to save some and then thru the Messiah he provided salvation for all. But now he must do something to get the elect to respond. So what irresistible grace results in is a divine enabling to respond to the gospel. And so by special divine enabling of the elect they are able to exercise the faith they need to receive the free gift of salvation.

*The difference between the strict-Calvinist and the hyper-Calvinist is they would say we’re not dealing with divine enabling but God must regenerate the person first and then give him the gift of faith. Never in scripture is saving faith the gift, the verse they use is Ep 2:8-9 but they must violate the rules of Greek grammar which is grammatically an impossible interpretation It is the salvation that is the gift. So if we keep it in a moderate biblical format irresistible grace by this means God gives a divine enabling in order for the elect to respond. Without this divine enabling their sin would keep them from responding or even having a desire to respond. Jn 1:13 the will of man does not initiate this, but will of God. Jn 6:37 (no room for any maybes) Acts 13:48.
All three
Acts 16:14 (General Call who heard) (Efficacious Call God opened her heart ) (The Belief she gave heed)

Rom 8:28-30 those that were preordained they will receive this divine call they will respond to.

Rom 9:16 it’s by the mercy of God they are given this divine enabling to respond it wouldn’t come from their own fallen will.

*CALLED
Cor 1:9, 23-24, Gal 1:15, Phil 2:13 Thess 2:14, 5:24, 2 Tim 1:9, Heb 3:1, Pet 2:9, so God’s response to the problem of total depravity is not as the strict/hyper Calvinist where God forces salvation on the elect. Rather he gives divine enabling to the elect so that they are able to exercise the will and the grace of God is such they will always respond correctly.

 

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Dealing with just I aspect of your post, election.

Election is not even close to what the Reformed teaches it is. The elect of God are those who did not get saved, Israel. I am not going to prove that in this post but you should have enough knowledge of the OT scriptures to know that God calls that nation of people his elect. Were they saved when he said it? Did they get saved later? The answer of course is no. Did the fact that they were not saved or that they did not get saved nullify their election? What impact would a passage like the following have on a modern day Reformed person who teaches the TULIP?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. (the fathers here are the fathers of Israel, the patriarchs)
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye (gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (Reformed would read that as being through election rather than through Israel's unbelief):
31 Even so have these also (these Israelites) now (in this present age) not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all (all Israel) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Just to get the context that Paul is addressing these comments to gentile believers I offer this;

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Before that he had been addressing Jews from Rom 7:1.

Now, election for both Jews and gentiles in this age is not before the foundation of the world like the Reformed claims, but is "since" the foundation of the world.God elects those whom the Holy Spirit immerses into the body of Christ, which he is forming in this age. This is separate from Israel. Look at this that is written to gentiles;

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (how) through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,(by preaching) to the obtaining of the glory (predestination) of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The beginning for the gentiles is in Acts 10 historically when God poured out the Spirit, which Peter explains to the contentious apostles in Jerusalem was the baptism of the gentiles with the Spirit in Acts 11.

He did the very same things for those of Israel, only at an earlier time.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (how) through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The sanctification of the Spirit by which we are elect is when he places us into the body of Christ and it is Christ whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world. God the Fathe will choose anyone who is in Christ but it is not him who has put them there, it is the Spirit of Christ who has put them there.

 

The national election of Israel is not the individual election to salvation they are two separate elections. The friends of the bridegroom are the Old Testament saints. The church is the bride. The elect are those whom God chose both Jew and gentile that God foreordained to be saved. In the material realm Israel is the only nation elected as God’s chosen people but in the spiritual realm God has elected both Jews and Gentiles as members of the Body of Messiah. The national election of Israel will find its fulfillment in the Messianic Kingdom when Israel survives the tribulation and enters the kingdom in non glorified bodies while we enter it in glorified bodies. To combine the elect as you are doing seems to require as much exegetical gymnastics as the hyper Calvinist do to fit their theology.
Imo

 

It can’t be proved because in every instance where salvation is shown to be by grace, faith is required. Which is why I believe that divine enabling was part of the salvation package and although faith requires an act, a work on behalf of man to exercise his will, because it was enabled by the Holy Spirit it is not classed as a work.

If I tell you to take my car to go get some beer from the store and bring it to my neighbors house I am believing that you will do it, I have an actual act in the scenario. If I’m planning to give the beer to my neighbors teenagers am I not guilty of committing a work that I could be liable for even if you dropped it off on their doorstep? Of course I’m liable because I put into motion the act of faith in you to perform a task.

In the realm of salvation I have acted by believing God’s promises to propitiate my sin. There is a meritorious movement on my part to do what is required of men, to obey God. But because of total depravity I had no desires or intentions of obeying the call of God because my sin superseded God and I didn’t want him at all. When the call of Christ-went out, just like Adam hiding I had no intentions of wondering where God was. But when the gospel message was presented to me at 5 years old, I responded. Adam was given divine enabling to believe God and he obeyed. I was given enabling to hear and to believe and to respond. God did not force me to believe. I believe on my own in a way that qualified my new birth. But I’m not credited with merit.

 

Thanks for the conversation. The issue is that of an emotional level where man wants to prove God’s character as Missy E so passionately attempts to do. We are creations and have no clue about what God’s right from wrong is, all we know of right and wrong about God’s character is what he chooses to reveal of himself through the Bible. And if we do not attempt to rationalize the antinomy of God’s will vs man’s will then the moderate Calvinist position in my view is the only one that can be said to be biblical. The opposite sides both try to make sense of this and have to go beyond what is written to fit what their theology requires.

 

Thanks my friend. I assume you are a Baptist? Doesn’t really matter to me. I never met a Baptist I didn’t like.

 

Well I was told (by Fruchtenbaum) agape’ing someone doesn’t mean liking them. He was probably referring to me.

Probably every Christian who goes on forums like this one enjoys debating doctrines and thinking about doctrinal issues. I really like the thinkers on both sides. But not you Barry. [emoji23]

 

Sai, thank you for that. I know you must have given time thinking and meditating on that for a while. However, you are wrong about that. There are not all kinds of different elections in the scriptures. There is one kingdom and anyone who gets into it must be born again. those who are elect are in the kingdom of God and God is in them. That is how it works.We can talk about how the kingdom is structured if you want but only the elect are in it and the elect were not chosen by name before the creation of the world. Only one person was chosen before the creation of the world and his name is Jesus Christ. Think about what a kingdom is. The intention of God was to establish his divine kingdom over men through his special nation, Israel. They refused it, even after he had provided the means for the born again entrance into it where sins were washed away and God instead established his kingdom in this age in a mystery form and is ruling over his subjects in an invisible person, the Holy Ghost, while the King is absent. The reason it is a mystery form is because this kingdom form is not a subject of the OT prophets and because the perfect will of God was to establish his outward and visible kingdom at his coming and we read how at the very last the hysterical Satan inspired mob was yelling out "we will not have this man to rule over us." Jesus Christ, the prophet, described this mystery form of the kingdom in 12 parables, seven of which are in Matt 13.and describes this whole 2000 years since the ascension from the planting to the reaping. He described it through parables for the express purpose of hiding it from the wise and prudent and to reveal it unto babes, who will bow the knee to Jesus Christ and put their full trust in him. This business of teaching that only a few special pre chosen people can enter in is an offence to Bible believers and to God.

But all of that aside for the time being, you did not even give an honorable mention to the scriptures that I posted that show how and when God elected gentiles in 2 Thess 2:13-14 and the strangers of Israel in 1 Peter 1:2-3. God elects those who are "in Christ" because he has elected Christ. Those who are "in Christ" have Christ in them. None of this is possible until and unless our sin is dealt with on the cross of Jesus Christ. This is where election takes place. Those who can be convinced that there is no other way to be saved except through faith in him will be born again of his Spirit according to the promise of God and those who adds something to this or takes something away from this sacrifice will not be saved no matter what else they believe and teach. It is "another" gospel and it will not save.

I am preaching the cross of Jesus Christ as the only way that God has provided for any and all sinners to be saved. He will receive any one, meaning he will elect anyone, who comes to him on bended knee through Christ.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope you can understand how important it is to get the doctrine of salvation right. It has eternal consequences, not only to the preacher but to those who hear him.

 

Irresistible grace is extra biblical. There is no such thing in scripture.
MB

 

Paul

Paul did something on The Damascus Road and it was not to Resist The Grace of God.

To a Saved soul, God Spiritually Smot him, with Grace, Irresistible.

Of course, when you are talking about a Saved soul, it is one who began their Spiritual Journey by being Convicted of their sins, which includes their inability to Resist God, certainly.

Lost souls' milage may vary, with regard to their Testimony of being lost and Void of Conviction, or God-Wrought Repentance and Faith, and therefore who continue dead in their sins and toot another time.

 

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There is not even one Gentile called elect in scripture, not one. Don't you think such a thing would have been announced in scripture?Just because we are grafted into the olive tree of Judaism does not make us Jews. Nor do we ever replace the Jews.
MB

 

" Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ: " ( Philippians 1:6 )

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 )

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." ( 1 Peter 1:3-5 ).

" who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:8-9 ).

" And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

 

" Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." ( 1 Thessalonians 1:1-4 ).

Romans 8:33.

Titus 1:1 ( Titus was a "Greek" ( Gentile ), please see Galatians 2:3 for proof, as well as Paul addressing him according to the faith of God's elect in Titus 1:1 ).

Colossians 3:12.

May God bless your studies, sir.

 

I do not disagree with that. But I know salvation election is individual not national.