Its saying specifically that they resist the Holy Spirit ?
Irresistible Grace
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Sai, Aug 12, 2020.
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Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
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And to use your language, this isn't God technically saving people like the monergists use it, right? It's more like a second round of salvation offers to Israel and in God's omniscience, He simply happens to know ahead of time that Israel wouldn't thwart His plan again by saying No then, is it?
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Joy unspeakable full of glory -
Abrahamic
Palestinian (land covenant)
Davidic
New
It is just a true statement to say that Israel was blinded by unbelief and only a small remnant believed. Those who did, received the Holy Ghost to indwell them, making them children of God and The Spirit put them into the body of Christ as functioning members of the body. Paul emphasized that they all received the Spirit (who is life) BY FAITH. Your religion says he was infused. Your religion is wrong.
Now God will accomplish the exact thing he intended for Israel and the nations at his second coming. The fierce persecution of Satan and the man of sin will create an environment that will drive them to Christ as their only hope. Many of the Psalms are about this reality. There is going to be a kingdom of Christ on this earth and all Israel who are breathing air after the dust settles will be saved and all who are left of the nations will be saved. They will however, not be in the church of Jesus Christ. The church of Jesus Christ is a new man.
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Joy unspeakable full of glory -
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I noticed that you said that God does not choose people to salvation...
Which is what the words on the page outright state, do they not?
Regardless if it seems "terrible" to you, that is what the Scripture says.
That He chooses them through two things ( sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth ) means to me that those are the two things that are involved in the process of Him choosing.
So, He did not choose them because of those things, but through them.
Again, it seems to me that you are rejecting the words on the page ( which clearly state that He actually chooses people to salvation ) to which I encourage you to trust the Lord with all your heart ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ), and believe the words and what they say, by faith...
Whether or not they "make sense" at this point.:)
God had not appointed them to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ).
" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
Notice that they were indeed chosen to salvation per Paul' second letter to them, and they were not appointed unto God's wrath but to obtain salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ per Paul's first letter to them.
To me the words on the page are unmistakable, Barry.
Two distinct and clear declarations...
1) In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 it clearly tells the Thessalonians that they were not appointed to God's wrath, but rather to obtain salvation.
2) In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 it says that they were chosen to salvation.
Incidentally, no "systematic theology" book or piggy-backing off the writings of prominent "Calvinists" was need for me to see this;
Rather, I simply look at what the words on the page clearly state and believe those words by faith.;)
Again, I encourage you to do the same. -
Thank you for your encouragement.
But I do not take my understanding of God's word from John Calvin or from the writings of traditional "Calvinists" that teach a-millennialism, infant baptism, a general atonement, or those who think that it's OK to persecute and malign those who do not believe as they do ( which I don't see many "Calvinists" today who do that, but I am aware of some that often do ).
My God tells me not to speak evil of men ( Titus 3:2 ), to reject ( not persecute nor have put to death ) those who unrepentantly cause division in the churches ( Titus 3:10-11 ), and to do my level best to not only avoid the appearance of evil, but as much as lies within me to be at peace with all men.
He also tells me that I am to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints ( Jude 1:3 ), to which I will gladly do so.
All I need are the words on the page, without the writings of men to tell me what they mean.
May the Lord, in His wisdom and mercy, grant you many good gifts in the days to come, sir;
And may you always remember His love for His people and His willingness to deliver them out of all their trials and tribulations in this life.:) -
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 )
Here's what I see when I read this:
11) The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12) Teaching those "all men" that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, that those "all men" should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.
13) and that those "all men" should be looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and their Saviour Jesus Christ.
14) Who gave Himself for those "all men" so that He might redeem those "all men" from all iniquity and purify unto Himself a peculiar people ( that consists of "all men" ) who are zealous of good works.
If I may ask, what do you see when you read this?
Who are the "all men" to you?
"All men" in the context of Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, Romans 1:16, Romans 9:24, Romans 10:12 and Romans 11:13-25?
Or "all men" in the context of Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:10-18, Romans 3:23, Romans 11:32, Galatians 6:10 and 1 Timothy 4:10? -
There is no doubt that "all men" would include us. But the saved are not "all men," unless one accepts the error of universsalism. -
I simply understand the "all men" in verse 11 to be the "us" ( believers ) in verse 12. :)
I maintain that God has a people ( the elect ), separate and distinct from the rest of mankind.
They are the ones redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and they are the ones who will rule and reign with Him 1,000 years to be followed by a new Heaven and a new earth. -
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I see that the people who resist the Spirit of grace are all of us, whose very nature it is to reject God from the heart.
That anyone stops resisting the Lord and His words is clear testament to His power to make men new creations in Christ by the miracle of the new birth...
To open someone's "heart" so that they attend to His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
That is why I believe wholeheartedly in the concept of "irresistible grace"...
Because God doesn't ask permission to bestow His gifts to anyone;
He simply does it, and does so without our express permission.
Salvation by grace alone.:) -
Your interpretation is irratipnal. "All men" are not "us." And to say that "all men" means "us" is total non sense, because that interpretation is simply not true. -
It's your right to understand the Lord's words any way you wish, as I'm not bound to demand how you should understand them.
I simply told you how I understand them and why.;)
Being "rational" or "logical" doesn't even enter in, in my opinion...
It's about context.
To me, that context can be immediate ( the passage itself ), greater ( "chapter" by "chapter" ) or greatest ( epistle or book to book ) depending on the subject.
For example:
As I see it, the context of "all men" in the passage cannot be every man, woman and child who ever lived...
Because God's grace that brings salvation has not appeared ( or been spiritually revealed, please see Matthew 11:25-27 ) to all of mankind;
But rather, it has been revealed to God's elect out of every tongue, tribe and nation, both Jew and Gentile alike ( those who will and have believed on Christ from the heart ), only.
I also see that it is believers alone who have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" ( Matthew 11:15 and others )...
That it is Christ's sheep alone who have been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God ( Matthew 13:10-11 );
Those that are "of God" hear ( welcome or receive ) God's words ( John 8:43-47 ).
They are those who have the Holy Spirit and have been given that Spirit so that they might know the things that are freely given to them "of" God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).
and they are those who are saved and do not think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness...
While those who are perishing do ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
In addition, the lost are blind to the Gospel ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ), while the saved are not.
So, I take this understanding of who God's children are and what they have, and I apply it to this passage.
I also notice that the entire letter is written to a believer, not an unbeliever.
A believer who has had the Lord and His word graciously revealed to him by the Spirit of God...
Titus.
He was a man much like the Ethiopian eunuch was...
Who recognized His need of a Saviour and believed through the preaching of Phillip ( Acts of the Apostles 8:26-39 ).
I wish you well, sir, and may He bless you with all wisdom in your studies.:) -
As you presented it, I am not following it. So for me I fail to see the sense of your point of view.
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Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
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Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Context , context, context...its almost painful.
Ok the salvation that is to be obtained is not conversion . Its future completetion . He's already talking to believers .
its the same here .
rom 13.11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our SALVATION is nearer than when we believed.
In the same context ( end times ) They are not destined to wrath ( tribulation) no church age believer is . -
Barry Johnson Well-Known Member
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