You misinterpreted my intent. It wasn't an admission that you have properly represented mainstream views...I know too many mainstream Calvinists who have told me otherwise....plus its obvious to any casual non-biased observer that you are not careful with your terms and explanations regarding these matter, but I'm tired of going over it again and again. BTW...since when did we all vote to make Ware the arbitrator of the mainstream views? Some would call Pink representative of mainstream views, but MacArthur takes issue with his views. Is Ware more in line with Pink or MacArthur? I can't tell based on that one clip.
So, let's move on. I specifically addressed Ware's points...will you?
Is Calvinism's "Total Inability" and Biblical Hardening Compatible?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jul 30, 2011.
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If you simply acknowledge that they were able to willingly accept but resisted, rebelled, grew hardened and then were "given over" to their defiled hearts, rather than being born in that condition then they would truly be "without excuse."
When someone continually rebells against the revelation of God their hearts grow hardened, "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I [God] would heal them.' (Acts 28) This is clearly the condition of the Jews because they have been sent God's revelation for generations, but 'now' the gospel is being taken to the the Gentiles and the "Gentiles will listen." (Acts 28:28), thus proving the doctrine of Total Inability is not a universal condition of all mankind from birth. -
The same type of thing is said of Lydia prior to Paul's visit. For instance, she is called a "God-worshipper" prior to when the Lord opens her heart to hear Paul's message.
Acts 16:14:
One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
If she, like Cornelius, was ALREADY regenerate then why do Calvinists use this passage as a proof text supporting their doctrine of pre-regeneration? -
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
It is perfectly clear that neither Cornelius nor Lydia were saved before Peter and Paul spoke to them.
C and L were 'God fearers.' That simply means that they were non-Jews who attended the local synagogue. Cornelius did lots of good deeds but probably no more that the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12. Maybe God had already put Cornelius under conviction of sin; maybe not. But he had not put his faith in Jesus Christ which is why Peter was sent to preach to him. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' Not otherwise. While Cornelius and his family were listening, the Holy Spirit came upon them. That surely suggests that He hadn't come before, and, 'If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His' (Rom 8:9). Therefore the Spirit must have come first and opened the hearts of Cornelius & Co to trust in Christ for salvation.
As for Lydia, we hear that 'The Lord opened her heart.' What does that tell us about her heart before God opened it? That's right! It was closed.
As for the expression 'hardening,' I think Skandelon and others are making too much of it. There are only two classes of people; the saved and the unsaved. God saves some and not others. 'Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens' (Rom 9:18). There isn't some strange third realm where God neither has mercy not hardens. In this context, hardening means simply leaving folk in their unsaved condition, dead in trespasses and sins, with hearts of stone (cf. Ezek 36:26).
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Concerning salvation we are incapable. Your friend set out to prove otherwise.
Go back and read what they said. Dr. Bob said we can do no good concerning salvation. Winman argued that he is wrong and set out to prove we are capable concerning salvation, which words were the platform of the argument. Win is misusing Cornelius as proof.
This is where I get the "good ol' boys" prior to salvation nonsense bleeding through this type of teaching. This stems from his theological deficiency. The Bible teaches a different state of lost man.
If you want to defend that theological position, then go for it. In fact, I think that is what you are doing.
Salvation isn't an invite for good ol' boys a la joining a lodge. We are lost, hostile toward God, enemies toward Him in our minds, in the kingdom of darkness, and at enmity with Him.
...until a work of Grace within our hearts. -
I am reminded of the ole southern saying, "like a blind dog in a meathouse."
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....Cornelius...a devout man...that feared God...who gave much...and prayed... Acts 10:1,2
....Lydia....one that worshipped God....whose heart the Lord opened.....Acts 16:14
Quite the opposite. It is perfectly clear that God had already wrought [Jn 3:21] within the hearts of both, BEFORE they came to the light.
Peter proved his Spiritual birth here:
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. Mt 16.
Peter was later baptized of the Spirit here:
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Now on to Lydia.
Steve -
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Steve -
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Unregenerate? Yes. They were religious. They were sincere. They were men and women of good works. But sincerity and religiosity will not get you to heaven. Many Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims have both of those combinations--sincere religious people who do good works. But like Cornelius, they knew not God, that is, Christ.
One cannot be regenerated without knowing Christ--doesn't matter if you are a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist: You cannot be regenerated if you do not know Christ.
Cornelius did not know Christ. Case closed.
The only positive thing that we can say about any of these people is that the Holy Spirit may have started to work in their hearts, perhaps convicting them of sin. This would be especially true of Cornelius. The account says that he was devout. Devout to who or what? He was probably a convert to Judaism, and had heard the Word many times. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit also works through the Word of God. Thus God may have started a work in his heart via the Holy Spirit working in Him. But if he did not know Christ he could not have been regenerated. -
Your position is not scriptural, is is based on a man-made theology. As I said before, your argument is not with me, it is with the word of God. Cornelius was a very good man before he was saved, the scriptures say so, not me. -
Some do good works, others are killers...
He is a perfect example on One that god had chosen to be saved, as he was sent Apostle Peter by God, in order to hear the Gospel and be saved....
God had been 'working" with him, and had provided him botht he grace and the Gospel in order to become saved! -
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I agree that there are two groups of people, in that their are those who are justified and those who are not. But among those who are not yet justified there are those who have not even heard the gospel (or rarely) and those who have heard in numerous times and have rebelled against it thus growing hardened to it. Heb. 3 warns people not to allow their hearts to grow hardened. Who does he warn? Those who are consistently hearing God's revelations. You can't grow hardened to something you haven't been around. -
NOT that we are all evil and do only bad acts...
its thast we can do good works, can have 'religion" practice Golden Rule etc...
just that we cannot come to Christ being fallen apart from the work of God on our behalf!
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