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Featured Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, May 31, 2012.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jonc

    Yes ! God is the First Cause of all causes. God is the First Cause of all rebellion against Himself. The Purpose for which this world was made was for God to be Glorified by Jesus Christ in His redeeming the Elect from sin !

    Col 1:14-17

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    This passage informs us that the redemption the church has through His Blood, was the purpose for which all things were created vs 16

    That was the reason why the angels that sinned were created, why adam was created, all according to an redemptive purpose FROM SIN !
     
    #21 savedbymercy, May 31, 2012
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I will question that God wanted Adam to sin. But I will agree with you that God ordained the fall. Everything is for the glory of God.
     
    #22 JonC, May 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2012
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I see you're up late too. :) My nine year old has a friend staying over, so it's going to be a long night for me (but I'm about done).

    Thank you for the reply. I can't say that I agree with you, but I see what you're getting at. I do agree with your last sentence - well said.
     
    #23 JonC, May 31, 2012
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jc

    God wanted to be Glorified by Jesus Christ did.t He by Going to the Cross ! Jn 17:4

    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    When do you think God the Father gave Him this Work to do ? For Christ was foreordained before the world began ! 1 Pet 1:20

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    So why would'nt God want adam to sin and bring sin and death into the world for the Purpose of Christ Glorifying Him on the Earth ?
     
    #24 savedbymercy, May 31, 2012
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So Paul was wrong! God is the AUTHOR of confusion! If God is the author of righteousenss as well as the author sin nothing could more characteristic as the author of confusion.
     
    #25 The Biblicist, May 31, 2012
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Address my post if you can, instead of giving an emotional reaction.

    You said:

    Those are your words. I posted what Jesus said, that contradicts your position. You and Jesus don't agree. So either you are the atheist or Jesus is, by my reasoning, or by what you said in your post. At any rate you should not be posting that anyone is an atheist just for not agreeing with you.
     
    #26 DHK, May 31, 2012
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Because God does not desire evil, nor does He desire wickedness or sin. Yet He works everything in accordance to His purpose. From my perspective, the notion that God had to desire man to sin for man to sin elevates man beyond his proper bounds. God’s glory is magnified precisely because the nature of man is short of the nature of God.

    I do know that you would be justified in replying that God created man with such a nature, and also desired for man to sin. Other than saying that I do believe that the outcome was precisely as God willed, I can’t answer that objection although I hold it false. But I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to examine your points.
     
    #27 JonC, May 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2012
  8. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Well, God's actions at the Tower of Babylon incident was the starting point of 10,000 years of wars. Either war is an unintended consequence or an intended consequence. Either way . . . .
     
    #28 billwald, May 31, 2012
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    He certainly did desire evil, He desired that Christ would be slain for His Good Pleasure !
     
    #29 savedbymercy, Jun 1, 2012
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    God is the First Cause of all things, yes of confusion also. Have you not read Gen 11:7

    7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    In the case of what Paul meant, God ordained secondary causes to bring in the confusion to the Church. God is the First Cause however !
     
    #30 savedbymercy, Jun 1, 2012
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    Its not necessary, you have not disproved the premise of the thread. Jesus has said nothing about God did not ordain sin or evil in the verses you provided !

    What you need to prove is that it was not God's will for adam to sin, that sin and death would come into His world in pursuance of the Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus !

    All things were made for that Purpose Col 1:16

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Now principalities and powers were Created through Him, now what does Paul say about them ? Eph 6:12

    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    God Created all those things for Christ, they were made for Him !
     
    #31 savedbymercy, Jun 1, 2012
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I actually view the work on the cross as Self-sacrifice and love on the part of God rather than a desire for evil on the behalf of God.

    What I understand you to say is that God decrees everything – whether good or evil He is the cause. So, if I understand you correctly, God does not actually “do” evil or good – but rather He implements His will for His Good Pleasure?
     
    #32 JonC, Jun 1, 2012
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Before the world began, God desired to be Glorified by the Work of the Cross. To bring that to pass, God desired sin to enter into the World.


    Where have I stated that ?
     
    #33 savedbymercy, Jun 1, 2012
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    What you need to prove is that sin is God's GOOD PLEASURE!

    Consider this. There is a distinction within the Will of God. The Bible is the REVEALED will of God but that does not mean it is the Sovereign will of purpose (Deut. 29:29). If the Bible were God's Sovereign will of purpose then all ten commandments would be sovergnly predestinated and obeyed. However, men violate God's REVEALED will but cannot violate His Sovereign will of Purpose (Isa. 46:10-11).

    So there is a distinction in the will of God. There is a difference between God's REVEALED will of purpose and God's SOVERIGN will of purpose.

    What you don't understand is that there is also a difference within God's Soverign will of purpose. In regard to righteousness there is God's Sovereign will of PLEASURE. There are things that the soul of God DELIGHTS in and that He is WELL PLEASED with.

    However, in contrast there are some things the Bible clearly teaches that He does not delight in and that He is not pleased with but abhors and hates with intense hatred. In regard to such God hates and considers evil there is God's Sovereign will of PERMISSION and RESTRAINT. His Soveriegn will of Permission and restraint is inferred many places throughout the scriptures but especially in Psalm 76:10:

    Psa 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

    Here we find the reason that God permits what his soul actual hates and that is to bring ultimate good from it (Rom. 8:28) and glory to Himself while all other intent to do evil by his creatures he RESTRAINS.

    Sin was PERMITTED by God and purposely RESTRAINED due to a RIGHTEOUS basis - liberty of choice with full responsibilty for that choice - which by its very nature must permit the choice to do that which displeases God or else there is no choice.

    However, to conclude that God MADE Adam sin is to attribute evil to God and charge God with DOING sin. God did not create moral evil/sin but it was "found" in Satan.

    Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee


    That sin was "found" in Satan after creation is proven by the following words:

    Gen. 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

    He could have never said that if sin were already in his creation prior to the seventh day.

    God is not the Author of sin. Sin originated out of that which was made "good" by God. The responsible free choice was something God created "good."

    God did not create moral evil/sin but it was "FOUND" in Satan and it entered the world of mankind by willfully FOLLOWING Satan. Hence sin was not created but "found" in Satan.
     
    #34 The Biblicist, Jun 1, 2012
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You didn’t state that God does not actually “do” evil or good. I was not sure if you were indicating that God does both evil and good – or that He does His will in accord with His Good Pleasure (neither evil nor good per se, but His will). I am sorry if I appeared to misstate your comments – I was just asking for clarification.
     
    #35 JonC, Jun 1, 2012
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Evil originated out of what God made and designed for good. The ability to freely choose to love and serve God is good. However, inherent in that same ability WITH FULL RESPONSIBILITY is the permission to choose to hate God and not to serve him.

    Even sin "found" in Satan I believe originated from good desires simply misplaced. It is "good" to want to be like God and Satan's sin was rooted in that "good" desire but misplaced when wanting to be "like" God stepped over the line of taking what only belonged to God - His glory.

    Sin in Adam originated from good desires simply misplaced. He knew full well that Satan had deceived Eve (1 Tim. 2:12) and willfully chose to die with Eve rather than live without her. To "love" Eve is a "good" desire and to be willing to die rather than lose her is a noble love but to love Eve MORE THAN God is sin.

    Hence, sin originated through good "lusts" or desires that were misplaced.
     
    #36 The Biblicist, Jun 1, 2012
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Then why bring it up ? Judge what I did state clearly instead of slyly insinuating. I gave you scripture for what I stated, judge from that. If you cannot do that, i will ignore you !
     
    #37 savedbymercy, Jun 1, 2012
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    the bib

    !

    Everything that happens in this world is according to God's good pleasure. Yes, Adam's sin was God's good pleasure, for Adam sinned according to the Eternal Purpose of Christ, which was Redemptive from sin, now you prove that it was not !

    Eph 1:5

    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    This adoption of children by Jesus Christ is part of God's Purpose for sin into the world !
     
    #38 savedbymercy, Jun 1, 2012
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I brought it up because of the interpretations that you associate with the verses you supply. They don’t support your thesis. As I stated (and you didn’t clarify), your comments left two options –perhaps more, but only two of which I am aware. As such, I did not insinuate anything – I said what I thought you may mean and asked if that was what you meant.

    What is apparent is that we have different understandings regarding the nature of God. My question was out of a realization that your explanation is not what is generally found within orthodox (historically orthodox) Christianity, but rather representative of a god within whom there is no actual good or evil – only will; or it is representative of a dualistic god who authors both good and evil. For example, in Islamic theology there is no absolute good or evil as all is abridged in the will of Allah – “as He wills it.” In Christianity, the events are not as morally important as are the nature of those events. Man may mean something for evil, but God means it for good. Men committed sin when they crucified Christ, but God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were yet sinners He died for us. God’s desire was not for evil but for salvation. Evil (as described and affirmed in post # 21) is foreign to the nature of the Christian God, not something that He desires. Yet the events are divinely ordained. My conclusion is that our views of God are so far removed from each other as to prevent any meaningful discourse regarding the causation of evil.
     
    #39 JonC, Jun 1, 2012
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  20. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jonc

    Why don't you try bringing up only what I brought up, and deal with those comments !

    All things are and were Created by God, and all for His Pleasure as the redeemed realized Rev 4:11

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    This scripture simply acknowledges that anything that has come into being Has God as the First cause ! That includes sin and evil !

    Now ask yourself, did sin and evil come into being ?
     
    #40 savedbymercy, Jun 1, 2012
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