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Featured Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, May 31, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Ps 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.


    Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    The only thing you have proved by quoting Ephesians chapter one is that God has pleaure in saving men from sin not pleasure in sin.
     
    #41 The Biblicist, Jun 1, 2012
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  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    None of those verses declare that God is not the First Cause of sin !

    Neither of those verses deny that all things are according to the good pleasure of His will !

    Eph 1:5

    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    It was certainly God's Good Pleasure for the elect to be made sinners for this purpose !

    No one has said that God likes sin ! However that He did cause it for His Eternal Purpose in Christ is quite clear, and it was His Good Pleasure to do so !
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Look, I took a different approach. Think "outside the box" as they say.
    You believe in the eternal decrees of God that all has been pre-determined that man has no choice in anything, thus making God the author of sin.

    You give a poor example of Christ being chosen before the foundation of the world to die on the cross, and using that conclude that the decisions of all are made before the foundation of the world.

    There are other examples besides Adam. I chose to use the example of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, whom Jesus refers to in the NT. The people of Sodom had their chance of choosing to submit themselves to God, but instead chose an ungodly and wicked lifestyle. God judged them for their wickedness.
    However Jesus said, that if his miracles were done in Sodom they would have "chose" to receive him, to repent, that is that Sodom would have remained until this day. What does that indicate? It indicates that all was not pre-determined. It shoots holes in your theory. You are calling Christ a liar, for Christ said, "Sodom would have remained until this day." Why? Because they had a choice and not everything is pre-determined.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The Bible denies that God can be the first cause of sin as it denies that sin can be found in Him (James 1:13,17) and where sin is first conceived and determined is the first cause of sin.

    That text deals with salvation from sin not the cause of sin.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Obviously I cannot judge your comments from the scripture you provided as they are not relevant to your statements - so I understand that you will have to ignore me on the remainder of this thread (given that you posted as much here). But I do think that I understand your position better – particularly as I am taking your evasiveness on the last question to mean that I was incorrect regarding your point.
     
    #45 JonC, Jun 1, 2012
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  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jonc

    Oh yes they are, and if you deal honestly you deal with what I posted ! Not your speculations. I am not here to defend your speculations, but what I posted clearly from the scripture, and that you have evaded !

    God created Adam to sin according to His Eternal redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus.

    Furthermore common Logic teaches us that God created adam to sin and bring death into the world since God was quite aware of what adam would do when tempted by the devil before He even created him, do you believe that ?
     
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    the bib

    Show the scripture that denies it !

    Who created man ? Who is the First Cause for the sin nature to exist ? Did man cause himself ? The sin nature is merely a sub cause of the First Cause !

    Salvation from sin is the primary reason for God to creating the World, and Adam.

    Salvation from sin through Jesus Christ was God's good pleasure before the world began !

    Prov 8:22-32

    22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

    27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

    28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

    29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

    30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

    31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

    32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are not a good ignorer, savedbymercy.

    To answer your question - no I do not believe that. I do not believe God created Adam to sin, but to obey and worship Him. You need to provide scripture that states God created man to sin and not rely on “common logic” as your defense.
     
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I already have provided scripture that gives the purpose for creation Col 1:16

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    All things were created for Christ the Redeemer, the Head of the Church to the end Col 1:14

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    If you cannot see that, I cannot help you, its there !

    Now if God's Eternal Purpose is in Jesus Christ Eph 3:11

    According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Then why would God not want adam to fulfil that purpose by bringing sin into the world ?

    And common logic is good when its sanctified by God's Spirit and used for God's Glory !
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That's where you were supposed to ignore me (I know you can't help me the justification for your point).

    Because God fulfills His purpose of salvation- not Adam. God is sovereign and the fall was in accord to His plan (I agree there).
     
    #50 JonC, Jun 1, 2012
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  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jonc
    Consider it done !
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I did and you just ignored it (James 1:13,17)



    So, you do know the difference between first and secondary causes?!?

    Responsible free will is the immediate cause of sin. God is the cause of the Responsible free will and that is as close as God gets to being the cause of sin. He created the responsible free agency.
     
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    That scripture does not deny it !

    Yep, and God is the First cause of all things ! The God i serve is Rev 4:11

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Yes it does. It denies that sin can originate IN HIM. He is perfectly HOLY and He is before all things.



    Good! Do you believe that God is the first cause of Human responsibility in regard to free choice and its consequences?

    Can God create a mechanism designed for good, with full instructions to use it for good and full warning against consequences for its misuse and assigning full and complete responsibility for its misuse?

    If not, why not?

    If so, then does not the responsibility for misuse directly the product of a second cause instead of direct responsibility of the first cause?

    If not, then are you not denying that God can justly hold anyone else responsible for sin but Himself?

    5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
    6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
     
  15. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Do we insist on having hostile discussions based on metaphors? That is what so many of these biblical concepts have to be. If God is light and in him is no darkness at all, then if we were talking physics, he could never be made out. You can see objects that are very bright, but if not for darkness, per se, you could never identify them. You know a bright light bulb when you see one, but if everything surroundng it were either just as bright, or the bulb itself were so bright it washed out any outline or background of anything else, you wouldn't know it was a light bulb. [To try to not bring another sub-debate into this, seeing God is a continuing paradox in scripture that is not the main point here.]

    So if He created all things, but some of the things are contrary to His character-- a definition of sin-- then must we presume He ordained every sin that anyone could ever commit, with the sinner having absolutely no choice otherwise? No, I don't think so. He is all light, but His character is seen in persons and acts which are not all light.

    If the real question is "Why?" not "Whether?" most likely we will have to be closer to perfection to know-- if we ever do know. But using another metaphor here, most young couples do still want to have children. Maybe they want perfect children, but they are completely delusional if they really think their children will be perfect. But they still want them, so they still have them (if possible). If it's worth it to have children who will choose to love you and try to please you, knowing that some will please you more than others, some might turn against you, and none will be absolutely perfect, you still want them to to choose to love you. Light has no value if there is no darkness whatsoever, but it does represent superiority. And love wouldn't have value if there were nothing less than love. Machines do what we want if we flip the right switch, but they don't love us, and they have no choice what to do. God opted for children who would choose to love him, so the possibility of doing less was an option.; therefore he created humans, not robots.

    Alexander Graham Bell didn't "cause" obscene phone calls or unwanted solicitations, but his development did lead to their possibility. And with the light bulb, what did Tom Edison invent?-- light or darkness? Not either literally, but a safer, more efficient way to see in the darkness, which is the absence of light. But in that absence, someone in the darkness can see us that we can't see if it light doesn't shine on them. With these consequences, why did we (mankind) invent anything if there are always negative possibilities? But Bell isn't thought of the cause of obscene calls, or Edison the one who made us targets for dark-clad hooligans. With God, we can't choose but think he had to create the negative possibilities along with the good desirable goals, and to know evil will be a consequence. If there is/was some way He could have given us a true choice to love Him, and everyone would-- that's just beyond our comprehension. And if He had created perfect comprehension for us, ... (where do these kind of questions stop?)
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Q

    That is a very good philosophical analogy. However, you must admit that both men and angels came from his hand morally speaking as just as bright - without sin - righteous in character. Hence, He did not create them defect.

    I don't believe he created anything at all contrary to His character because after God created all things he looked upon all he had created and pronounced "very good" and a holy God could not make such a pronouncement if sin or moral defect existed at that point in time. The scriptures say that God cannot look upon inquity with approval and in Genesis 1:30 he looked upon everything he had made with approval - "very good."

    However, children are born of defect Parents not perfect parents and yet man came from a Perfect God. I think the issue is not settled by such metaphors an analogies but by the clear revelation of scriptures. God is incapable of sinning or tempting others to sin and in him is no sin at all as perfect righteousness or perfect holiness does not allow for the presence of moral sin.

    Sin is not the mere absence of righteousness/light but it is a principle of rebellion against righteousness/light.

    Sin has its origin in what God created as "very good" because everything God created was pronounced "very good."

    To me it is a very simple matter. God created beings with the capability of choice and that very act gave sin permission to enter into his creation.

    He also created those beings with choice as RESPONSIBLE agents and in keeping with that, he precisely outlined the proper and improper use of "choice" and with complete warning of consequences of right and wrong choices making those beings RESPONSIBLE MORAL Agents. That clears God of any culpible responsibility for either sin or its consequences.

    The Word of God says that inquity was "FOUND" in Satan not CREATED in Satan by God. The responsiblity of that inquity is not attributed to God but to Satan just as sin is attributed to "BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD and death by sin."

    I think your illustration of Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Edison illustrates this point well. You did admit that "absence of light" is "one" definition of sin and that is an admission of the inadequacy in that "one" definition to really define sin.


     
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    No it does not, nowhere close !

    God is the First cause of everything, all things [mens wills included] works according to His own counsel will Eph 1:11

    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Thats the God I know and serve !
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is a debate forum or have you been notified yet that this is what you are on? You did not address my questions but ignored them but hypocrtically want me to address every one of yours.

    ANSWER the questions:



    1. Do you believe that God is the first cause of Human responsibility in regard to free choice and its consequences?

    2. Can God create a mechanism designed for good, with full instructions to use it for good and full warning against consequences for its misuse and assigning full and complete responsibility for its misuse?

    3. If not, why not?

    4. If so, then does not the responsibility for misuse directly the product of a second cause instead of direct responsibility of the first cause?

    5. If not, then are you not denying that God can justly hold anyone else responsible for sin but Himself?

    5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
    6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
     
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I know what it is, and i am not obligated to answer all your questions. I answered one : You asked:

    I responded with:


    Answering all your foolish questions is not necessary, after all that, God is the First cause of all causes Rev 4:11

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Everything that exists, sin and evil included was created by God for His Pleasure, which was the Cross of Christ, the Lamb slain fromthe foundation, do you deny that ?
     
  20. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    God created Adam to sin and be accountable for it. That is why He told him not to eat of a certain tree, to establish his accountability, else adam would not have transgressed. Where there is no law, their is no transgression. But Christ must die for Transgressions, that was established before the world began !
     
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