S&N insists that we must deal with his arbitrary verse lists, which he insists are to unsaved people. But he doesn't exegete them or interpret them. Okay, I'll deal with this one.
Matt. 4:19 is to Peter and Andrew, but there is no indication in the text or context whether or not they were saved. I believe they were saved and this was their call to service.
Matt. 8:19 is to a scribe, but we find from the context that he was already a disciple, a believer, since the man in v. 22 is called “another disciple.”
Matt. 8:22 is to “another disciple,” so he was already a believer.
Matt. 9:9 is to Matthew, but it doesn’t say if he was saved yet or not.
Matt. 16:24 is to “His disciples,” so they were already believers.
Matt. 19:21 is to the rich young man. Jesus tells him to sell all he has, and then he will have treasure in Heaven. I dealt with this passage when it was mentioned by S&N earlier, and I don’t believe it proves Lordship Salvation at all. The significant thing here is that, according to the order of salvation given by S&N earlier, the man would have been saved if he had sold his possessions. Jesus told him to “Follow Me,” then, after he would have been saved.
Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:27 are parallel to Matt. 9:9.
Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23 are parallel to Matt. 16:24.
Mark 10:21 and Luke 18:22 are parallel to Matt. 19:21.
Luke 8:57-59 are parallel to Matt. 8:19-22.
John 1:43 is to Phillip, but we don’t know from the context exactly when he got saved.
John 10:27 is about “My sheep,” which means believers.
John 12:26 has someone serving Jesus before following Him. I would say this means the follower is already saved.
John 13:36 is to Peter. Jesus is speaking of His own death, therefore this is about literally, physically following, not metaphorically.
John 21:19 is once again to Peter. If Peter wasn’t saved by then, it would be very strange.
Acts 12:8 is about literally, physically following, not metaphorically. And besides, it is about following an angel, not Jesus. This proves to me how careless S&N is being with the Scripture. He evidently didn’t even realize this is about following an angel out of prison, since he included it with verses about following Jesus.
At the end of his list, S&N tacked on Luke 9:61 and John 21:22, out of order. Luke 9:61 is a continuation of the parallel passage to Matt. 8, and is therefore redundant.
John 21:22 is a continuation of the words of Jesus to Peter from earlier in the chapter, and is therefore redundant.
SOOOOOOO, what is the record? S&N cannot prove exegetically that a single one of these passages is to lost people. Furthermore, Matt. 8:19 & 22, 16:24 (and the parallels in Mark and Luke), John 10:27, John 12:26 and at least the later passages about Peter are definitely to disciples, who are believers.
S&N did not prove his point with this casually thrown together list. On the contrary, he proved that Jesus often told those who were already disciples to follow Him!!
</font>[/QUOTE]Let’s examine JoJ’s reply to my previous post.
I agree that John 13:36 and Acts 12:8 were not good proof texts. Now, let's look at the others.
MA 4:19 describes Jesus' first encounter with Peter and Andrew. JoJ said "I believe they were saved and this was their call to service."
Actually, the same event is described in John 1:35-50 which sheds more light on the question.
Jhn 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
Jhn 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! Jhn 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
Jhn 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
Jhn 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. Jhn 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
Jhn 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Jhn 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Jhn 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
The key verves are John 1:41 and 1:50
Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
Jhn 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
If the three disciples had first found the Messiah, I don't think it's accurate to assume that they had already been saved prior to this event. Christ expressed surprise that Nathanael believed because He had seen Nathanael under the fig tree.
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Mathew 8:19-22 is clarified by looking at the range of definitions for the Greek word "mathetes" which is translated as disciple here. (Strong's 3101).
1) a learner, pupil, disciple.
Therefore, both of these "disciples" could simply have been people who had heard about Jesus and had joined the multitudes who came to see Him and to learn more about Him. Certainly, these weren't disciples in the same sense that the twelve were.
MA 9:9 talks about Jesus' first meeting with Mathew. I believe that the same argument used previously for Andrew, Peter, Phillip, and Nathanael (John 1:41) holds true for Mathew as well. This was the first time he met Jesus. He wasn't saved yet.
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I really take issue with your interpretation of MA 16:24.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Christ is talking to His disciples but He is making a statement about "any [man]." This is perhaps the best description of Christ's requirement for salvation.
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As far as MA 19:21 is concerned it is true that the rich young ruler would have been saved if he had been willing to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. I don't agree that this says nothing about Lordship Salvation. In fact it's a very good proof text for it.
The ruler demonstrated that he was unwilling to give up his money (his master) to follow Christ. He was unwilling to make Christ his Lord because his riches were his lord. This is exactly what I'm talking about. We must give up our false master to accept the real one.
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My reply to your answers for the parallel passages is the same as my reply above to the original. In other words, you misinterpreted them in the same way as you misinterpreted the original ones.
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John 1:43 refers to Jesus' initial meeting with Phillip. My reply once again is that this is explained by John 1:35-50.
You replied that John 10:27 is about “My sheep,” which means believers.
My point exactly. Christians accept Jesus as Lord (Sheppard) and follow Him.
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For John 12:26 you said "John 12:26 has someone serving Jesus before following Him. I would say this means the follower is already saved."
Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
I don't see that this passage says that serving Christ precedes following Him. In fact it says that serving Him requires that we follow Him to serve Him wherever He is.
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John 21:19 is once again to Peter. If Peter wasn’t saved by then, it would be very strange.
Of course, this verse is to Peter at a much later point in time. But even then, Christ is testing Peter. Look at John 21:17.
Jhn 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Jesus says that if Peter loves Him he must do something, "Feed My sheep." The importance of loving Christ is stressed in John Chapter 14.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Note verse 21 says that those who keep Christ’s commandments loves Him and is loved by the Father and Christ. This shows the requirement for an abiding close relationship (love) between us and Christ. If we do that we will know on that day (Judgment) that we are in Christ (saved).
Is Lordship Salvation a misnomer?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bro. Ruben, Feb 27, 2006.
Page 16 of 16
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What did Jesus man when He said "Come and follow Me?"
He said in MA.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely wrong, S&N. There is no contextual or linguistic connection whatever between Matt. 24:13 and any of the verses you quoted on Jesus (oh, yes, and an angel, too) saying "Follow me." You are inventing your own rules of hermeneutics here. Ignore proper interpretation of God's Word at your peril. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you accept the truth of Mat 24:13? What does it mean to you? -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Of COURSE I accept the truth of Matt. 24:13. It is prophetic, just as the rest of the Olivet Discourse is. It is referring to the tribulation period and those who endure to the end of it. I am a pre-millenialist. If you are not, fine, but my interpretation is entirely valid and held by many if not all pre-millenialists. -
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Oh, and you weren't trying to insult me with this?
"S&N insists that we must deal with his arbitrary verse lists , which he insists are to unsaved people. But he doesn't exegete them or interpret them."
or this?
"S&N did not prove his point with this casually thrown together list." -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No I was not trying to insult you. I truly felt your lists were arbitrary and casually thrown together. Otherwise, for example, why would you have something about following an angel in a list about following Jesus??
Forgive me if you were offended. I was not trying to insult, but to point out what I felt was a flaw in your methodology. -
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Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Originally posted by John of Japan:
[qb]Do you accept the truth of Mat 24:13? What does it mean to you?Click to expand...Click to expand...Is that what you believe StraightAndNarrow, that you must endure until the end?
Christian faith, ituttutClick to expand...</font>Click to expand...
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
There is a lot more scripture that supports the idea that the quality of our Christian life is vitally important.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Originally posted by John of Japan:
Do you accept the truth of Mat 24:13? What does it mean to you?Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Is that what you believe StraightAndNarrow, that you must endure until the end?
Christian faith, ituttut Yes, I do. First of all I don't base my theology on end times theology. I consider most of that to be symbolic. Yes, there will be a rapture, when Christ returns (for the only time). Therefore, I think MA 24:13 has general application.
</font>Click to expand...Click to expand...The reason I asked is, it is hard for me to believe that the blood of Jesus Christ doesn’t have the power to save you Now, and forever. Christ taught Paul all that Paul knew, and the gospel of Paul tells us that we died on the Cross with Jesus. We are dead to sin, as we are dead to the law. Romans 6:7-11, ”For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more
dominion over him. 10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
This is the Power of God to save us immediately and forever. Jesus in Matthew speaks and lives in Old Testament times. There is no way any could be saved as we are today. He had not shed His blood, so all before had to endure until the end. They, Abraham, Moses, David, and the rest, even John the Baptist had to endure until the end to await the cleansing blood of the Lamb. Not until He shed His blood could any be saved for their sins were only covered with the blood of animals. But today when we believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we are saved immediately and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
How can we have the joy, and peace of our salvation if we believe we are in jeopardy of losing it. All our sins have been forgiven of which we are to praise and thank God for, instead of continually asking God to forgive us of our sins. What must He think of Christians that keep asking, when He keeps telling us in His Word that “our sins are forgiven”. There is power in the blood of God, and it is saving power to the utmost.
So many Christians for some reason hold onto to the guilt of their sins. All things are New for the Christian as all the old is dead. Will I sin tomorrow? Probably, but I am dead to that sin as we live in the Law of Christ where sin has no power – Romans 8:2, ” For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”Can we really believe Christ Jesus as He speaks from heaven? I believe we can.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
There is a lot more scripture that supports the idea that the quality of our Christian life is vitally important.Click to expand...
God today is reconciling the world unto himself, of who so ever will for all things are new, and God is not talking to His nation today. After we are “caught up to Him in the air”, then that evil one will become known, and then the wrath of God will be poured out on His nation, the nations and the earth.
There is peace, joy, and happiness in our hearts knowing we are already in His Body, being made righteous for He is righteous.
Today we are not as His Apostles, with the Power of Holy Spirit at our beck and call, but God does answer prayer in our spiritual lives and will give us that peace, joy, and happiness in our OSAS faith, if we ask.
Christian faith, ituttutClick to expand...Click to expand... -
Originally posted by ituttut:
The reason I asked is, it is hard for me to believe that the blood of Jesus Christ doesn’t have the power to save you Now, and forever. Christ taught Paul all that Paul knew, and the gospel of Paul tells us that we died on the Cross with Jesus. We are dead to sin, as we are dead to the law. Romans 6:7-11, ”For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more
dominion over him. 10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
This is the Power of God to save us immediately and forever. Jesus in Matthew speaks and lives in Old Testament times. There is no way any could be saved as we are today. He had not shed His blood, so all before had to endure until the end. They, Abraham, Moses, David, and the rest, even John the Baptist had to endure until the end to await the cleansing blood of the Lamb. Not until He shed His blood could any be saved for their sins were only covered with the blood of animals. But today when we believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we are saved immediately and sealed by the Holy Spirit.Click to expand...
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I certainly agree that the Old Testament faithful lived and were saved under a different covenant than the new covenant provided by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This would include believers like John the Baptist who met Christ but died before His death and resurrection. I would put everyone who lived after Christ’s resurrection, including all the disciples except Judas Iscariot under the second covenant.
But Jesus was always focusing on what His disciples should do after His ascension into Heaven so my understanding is that everything He told them should apply to us as well. He’s talking to believers who will be judged under the second covenant and who will be sharing the gospel to others who will also be under the second covenant.
Therefore, I believe that the great majority of the scripture in the New Testament is speaking directly to us.
I especially believe that Christ was speaking to us.
Jesus in Matthew speaks and lives in Old Testament times.Click to expand...
Originally posted by ituttut:
How can we have the joy, and peace of our salvation if we believe we are in jeopardy of losing it. All our sins have been forgiven of which we are to praise and thank God for, instead of continually asking God to forgive us of our sins. What must He think of Christians that keep asking, when He keeps telling us in His Word that “our sins are forgiven”. There is power in the blood of God, and it is saving power to the utmost.
So many Christians for some reason hold onto to the guilt of their sins. All things are New for the Christian as all the old is dead. Will I sin tomorrow? Probably, but I am dead to that sin as we live in the Law of Christ where sin has no power – Romans 8:2, ” For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”Can we really believe Christ Jesus as He speaks from heaven? I believe we can.Click to expand...Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
There is a lot more scripture that supports the idea that the quality of our Christian life is vitally important.Click to expand...Originally posted by ituttut:
I notice you have no problem of believing Jesus in the Gospel of John. Why not from Paul the heavenly appointed Apostle to the Gentile? But should you believe what you are quoting in John above. If you will notice, Jesus is not addressing us here. He said He came for His people. If you are then can anyone today be saved? Who today can ask and it will be done? I know of no one in this dispensation that can do that, and there are no know instances of such a thing happening after Paul arrived in Rome. Only those of the Pentecostal church, and the Christians in that day could do this. Today cannot just ask, and it will be done. Today we can ask, but if it is not His will, the answer is No. They could ask then for the “kingdom was at hand”, and that tells us what it will be like in the kingdom.
God today is reconciling the world unto himself, of who so ever will for all things are new, and God is not talking to His nation today. After we are “caught up to Him in the air”, then that evil one will become known, and then the wrath of God will be poured out on His nation, the nations and the earth.
There is peace, joy, and happiness in our hearts knowing we are already in His Body, being made righteous for He is righteous.
Today we are not as His Apostles, with the Power of Holy Spirit at our beck and call, but God does answer prayer in our spiritual lives and will give us that peace, joy, and happiness in our OSAS faith, if we ask.
Christian faith, ituttutClick to expand...
So, what do you think Jesus is saying to us in Jhn 15:4-7? What does it mean when He says:
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Of course, similar statements are made by other writers of the New Testament.
James says:
Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified by works? That’s what it says.
Peter says:
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Purified your souls by love of the brethren? That’s what the Bible says.
Hebrews says:
Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Hbr 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Hbr 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Impossible to renew those who have fallen away? That’s what the Good Book says.
How do you interpret these passages of scripture? Do you accept them?
We are not His Apostles to be sure. But we are His disciples. Christ calls us to discipleship. That’s not very popular today but it’s what Christians used to believe. I believe that Christians need to return to accepting the responsibilities of discipleship instead of stressing that whatever we do in His name somehow reduces the sovereignty of God. We can’t reduce the sovereignty of God. He is absolutely sovereign. We can bring dishonor on His name by claiming to be Christians and living like one of the lost, however. -
Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
The reason I asked is, it is hard for me to believe that the blood of Jesus Christ doesn’t have the power to save you Now, and forever. Christ taught Paul all that Paul knew, and the gospel of Paul tells us that we died on the Cross with Jesus. We are dead to sin, as we are dead to the law. Romans 6:7-11, ”For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more
dominion over him. 10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
This is the Power of God to save us immediately and forever. Jesus in Matthew speaks and lives in Old Testament times. There is no way any could be saved as we are today. He had not shed His blood, so all before had to endure until the end. They, Abraham, Moses, David, and the rest, even John the Baptist had to endure until the end to await the cleansing blood of the Lamb. Not until He shed His blood could any be saved for their sins were only covered with the blood of animals. But today when we believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we are saved immediately and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
</font>[/QUOTE]Amen.
I certainly agree that the Old Testament faithful lived and were saved under a different covenant than the new covenant provided by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This would include believers like John the Baptist who met Christ but died before His death and resurrection. I would put everyone who lived after Christ’s resurrection, including all the disciples except Judas Iscariot under the second covenant.
Click to expand...
They lived and preached under the gospel of John the Baptist, as did Jesus of His people must “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins”. We cannot deny this for this is the gospel that Peter preached at Pentecost to his fellow countrymen in Jerusalem. It was required of them for the “kingdom was at hand”. There were no Gentiles to go marching in with them. The Gentiles would tag along, and be as they always were on earth. Subject to God and His people when they were in His will. No provision had been made at that time for the Gentile, other than to come as a proselyte.
John is saved under the Old Covenant, but is brought up under the New Covenant as all are, or will be. Everyone that has ever lived could only be saved as they lived. We see in Hebrew 11 how all were saved before the Body of Christ is revealed. No one could be saved through the faith of Jesus Christ, so they all came by faith.
Does Paul’s gospel have something New to tell us? I say yes, and more than one New thing is included.
But Jesus was always focusing on what His disciples should do after His ascension into Heaven so my understanding is that everything He told them should apply to us as well.
Click to expand...
If we believe that we are saved when we believe on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to save us then we are saved. But do we understand?
Me being a Gentile, I believe He wishes me to understand how much He loves me. When Jesus was on earth He would not give the Gentile the time of day. We know this for we see they are of no concern. He came for a reason and it was for His “flock” as seen in Matthew 15:22-28. We see years later, after Damascus Road Peter still does not acknowledge the existence of the Gentile in Acts 10.
My, this should tell us something New did happen on Damascus Road. I did not cry when I was saved long ago. But I did when I understood. He didn’t have to save me, but He did, even though He did not come for me. He personally made provision for me in His Body, His Kingdom, in the Kingdom of God His Father.
But also we do understand this was His eternal purpose.
He’s talking to believers who will be judged under the second covenant and who will be sharing the gospel to others who will also be under the second covenant.
Therefore, I believe that the great majority of the scripture in the New Testament is speaking directly to us.
I especially believe that Christ was speaking to us.
Click to expand...
So I agree, but we with the preaching of Jesus Christ are to stand today according to Paul’s gospel, for in it is the revelation of the mystery, kept secret from the beginning (Romans 16:25) . It will be according to Paul’s gospel that God by Jesus Christ will judge the secrets of men – Romans 2:16.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Jesus in Matthew speaks and lives in Old Testament times.Click to expand...
</font>[/QUOTE]But don’t we find in the mystery of God things hidden as scripture says? Are we to say we “know where and how to find the ‘unsearchable riches of Christ’” even before He tell us? If Jesus had told certain things while He was on the earth, could He have told Paul a “secret”. Jesus did not keep anything secret from those He came for the first time that applied to them.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
How can we have the joy, and peace of our salvation if we believe we are in jeopardy of losing it. All our sins have been forgiven of which we are to praise and thank God for, instead of continually asking God to forgive us of our sins. What must He think of Christians that keep asking, when He keeps telling us in His Word that “our sins are forgiven”. There is power in the blood of God, and it is saving power to the utmost.
So many Christians for some reason hold onto to the guilt of their sins. All things are New for the Christian as all the old is dead. Will I sin tomorrow? Probably, but I am dead to that sin as we live in the Law of Christ where sin has no power – Romans 8:2, ” For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”Can we really believe Christ Jesus as He speaks from heaven? I believe we can.Click to expand...Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
There is a lot more scripture that supports the idea that the quality of our Christian life is vitally important.Click to expand...
</font>[/QUOTE]Originally posted by ituttut:
I notice you have no problem of believing Jesus in the Gospel of John. Why not from Paul the heavenly appointed Apostle to the Gentile? But should you believe what you are quoting in John above. If you will notice, Jesus is not addressing us here. He said He came for His people. If you are then can anyone today be saved? Who today can ask and it will be done? I know of no one in this dispensation that can do that, and there are no know instances of such a thing happening after Paul arrived in Rome. Only those of the Pentecostal church, and the Christians in that day could do this. Today cannot just ask, and it will be done. Today we can ask, but if it is not His will, the answer is No. They could ask then for the “kingdom was at hand”, and that tells us what it will be like in the kingdom.
God today is reconciling the world unto himself, of who so ever will for all things are new, and God is not talking to His nation today. After we are “caught up to Him in the air”, then that evil one will become known, and then the wrath of God will be poured out on His nation, the nations and the earth.
There is peace, joy, and happiness in our hearts knowing we are already in His Body, being made righteous for He is righteous.
Today we are not as His Apostles, with the Power of Holy Spirit at our beck and call, but God does answer prayer in our spiritual lives and will give us that peace, joy, and happiness in our OSAS faith, if we ask.
Christian faith, ituttutClick to expand...
[/quote]I can’t do that. How can I give up Christ in Heaven? He wouldn’t let go even if I wanted to. Why do you argue with God. Jesus told you He did not come for you then. It was only after He was seated beside His Father in heaven that He spoke to we in this “dispensation” of His. You say “dispensation” probably just as those that first called the Christian, a Christian. There goes that “Christian” with some kind of crazy notion of “dispensationalism”.
Can you in all honesty say you do “accept all the scripture in the Bible as being inspired of God”? Then why will you not believe Paul when he says “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words”, Ephesians 3:1-3.
So, what do you think Jesus is saying to us in Jhn 15:4-7? What does it mean when He says:
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
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Of course, similar statements are made by other writers of the New Testament.
James says:
Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
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In Christ we endure. In His faith, not mine is it possible for me to endure.Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified by works? That’s what it says.Click to expand...
I am not of works. Doesn’t James still live under the Law? Was He saved as a Jew, or as a Gentile? This is the very reason Paul, taking Barnabas and Titus with him, went from the Christian church to the Jewish church in Jerusalem, to tell James and the Apostles they didn’t appreciate some of their people, the Judaziers (troublers) telling the Christians they had to come as the Jew. We Christians are not to be put under bondage, as were those that made “covenant” with God. Please read Galatians chapter 2, and Acts 15.
James and the Apostles and those of Pentecost were to believe Jesus on earth for in that dispensation they were saved. Paul was a Jew and made “covenant” with God, but Paul was saved in this “dispensation” through faith, just as all Jews today are to be saved.[quote
Peter says:
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Purified your souls by love of the brethren? That’s what the Bible says.
[/quote]I love you? Don’t you love me? Are we not in the Body of Christ?
Hebrews says:
Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Hbr 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Hbr 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Impossible to renew those who have fallen away? That’s what the Good Book says.
Click to expand...
Isn’t it wonderful that we are not under bondage and are free and have the liberty in Christ Jesus, having better than they then as far as the peace and joy of our salvation. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Who is able to break that seal of the Holy Trinity? There was in those days, as scripture proves, those (not saved) but were given the gospel of that day, and some of the Jews here “tasted” of the heaven gift, received the Holy Ghost. That doesn’t make them saved. We believe we can see this in Acts 5:1 with Ananias, and his wife Sapphira.
How do you interpret these passages of scripture? Do you accept them?
Click to expand...We are not His Apostles to be sure. But we are His disciples. Christ calls us to discipleship. That’s not very popular today but it’s what Christians used to believe. I believe that Christians need to return to accepting the responsibilities of discipleship instead of stressing that whatever we do in His name somehow reduces the sovereignty of God. We can’t reduce the sovereignty of God. He is absolutely sovereign. We can bring dishonor on His name by claiming to be Christians and living like one of the lost, however.Click to expand...
I am so very thankful that we Christians have already been judged as we are made righteous in Him. I’m sure I will be trembling, and hope I don’t pass out as I stand before Him as He judges what rewards if any that will be coming my way.
Christian faith, ituttut -
Originally posted by ituttut:
I believe every word spoken in the Bible. If we say that and then bypass verses we don’t wish to include in our faith, is it that we don’t believe all of the Bible, or refuse as it is not what we have been taught by man, not fitting into our salvation. If you cut the Word off before you reach Paul’s Epistles, what gospel do you have. Is it not that of the Catholic church, of “repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins”? We have to remember John wrote all of His books some 20 to 30 years after the death of Paul. John’s gospel is written to back up the validity of Paul’s gospel, just as it was necessary Peter be the first earthly Apostle of the Jewish Pentecostal church to preach salvation to a Gentile. The Acts 10 incident shows God would not allow Peter to preach the gospel of John the Baptist to a Gentile. At this time Peter was still the head of the Jerusalem church, therefore Peter’s personal testimony certified that Paul had the gospel to the Gentile, else the Christian message may have never gotten of the ground.
If we believe that we are saved when we believe on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to save us then we are saved. But do we understand?
Me being a Gentile, I believe He wishes me to understand how much He loves me. When Jesus was on earth He would not give the Gentile the time of day. We know this for we see they are of no concern. He came for a reason and it was for His “flock” as seen in Matthew 15:22-28. We see years later, after Damascus Road Peter still does not acknowledge the existence of the Gentile in Acts 10.
My, this should tell us something New did happen on Damascus Road. I did not cry when I was saved long ago. But I did when I understood. He didn’t have to save me, but He did, even though He did not come for me. He personally made provision for me in His Body, His Kingdom, in the Kingdom of God His Father.
But also we do understand this was His eternal purpose.
But I must believe Jesus when He says He wasn’t speaking to us. However there is quite a bit that can be applied to us, but not all. Two that are not for this “secret time in Him” is the Sermon on the Mount, and the Lord’s Prayer.
So I agree, but we with the preaching of Jesus Christ are to stand today according to Paul’s gospel, for in it is the revelation of the mystery, kept secret from the beginning (Romans 16:25) . It will be according to Paul’s gospel that God by Jesus Christ will judge the secrets of men – Romans 2:16.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Originally posted by ituttut:
It took me a while to understand what you were saying here because it was so different from my own beliefs. Basically, you're saying that you accept the entire Bible as truth but that none of the New Testament other than the Epistles of Paul apply to you. Jesus' words were significant but they don't apply to you. None of the four gospels apply to you. Is that a correct statement?Click to expand...
There are many more comparisons than the list put together below, but believe these few references should be enough to see the division of these two “dispensations” of God.
We are to believe all of the Bible, taking note of the “who, when, where, what, why, and the how of it all as we seperate out what is written to we today.
We must believe John the Baptists gospel to the Jew.
We must believe Jesus on Earth.
We must believe Peter, John, and James shook hands with Paul to not preach to Gentiles.
We must believe only Peter was sent by God to preach to a Gentile (one time only).
We must believe Acts 1, 2, 9, and 10.
As Christians, We must believe Christ Jesus in Heaven.
We must believe Christ allowed John to tarry, to confirm in his gospel, Paul’s gospel.
We must believe Galatians 1:11-12.
We must believe Paul, and his gospel given to him, and taught by Christ in heaven.
KINGDOM CHURCH--------------------------BODY CHURCH composed a list
12 Apostles for 12 Tribes------------------------One Apostle for One Body
> > > > >-------------------------------> > > > >
The 12’s Commission----------------------------------Paul’s Commission
Mat 28;Mar 16;Luk 24;Joh21;Acts 1-----------II Corinthians 5:15-21
> > > > >--------------------------------> > > > >
Kingdom gospel------------------------------------Christian gospel
II Samuel 7:10-17----------------------------------Acts 20:24
Matthew 10:5-7; 24:14----------------------------Ephesians 2:8-9
> > > > >---------------------------------> > > > >
Jerusalem Jewish Church-------------------------Antioch Christian Body Church
Acts 2:41--------------------------------------------Acts 13:2
> > > > >---------------------------------> > > > >
Circumcision gospel, Galatians 2:7--------------Un-Circumcision gospel, Galatians 2:7
> > > > >---------------------------------> > > > >
Those of the Covenant-----------------------------Not asked to make Covenant
Galatians 2:7----------------------------------------- Romans 2:16; 16:25-26
> > > > >-----------------------------------> > > > >
Jew’s saved BY faith--------------------------------Gentiles saved THROUGH faith
Romans 3:30------------------------------------------Romans 3:30 (unknown until after Damascus Road )
> > > > >------------------------------------> > > > >
Gospel Jew, Cross of Guilt--------------------------Glory of the Cross Gospel
Acts 2:23,36; 5:28-31---------------------------------I Corinthians 1:18
You are a “spiritual” man StraightAndNarrow. It took me 40 or so years of digging. Most will not allow themselves to see. What I saw at first scared me almost to death. You have seen some of what I am saying, with reservations. I say nothing different than what scripture will allow.
Christian faith, ituttutClick to expand... -
Love reading MacArthur and have many of his books plus his study bible which is NKJV. A few of his good quotes are these:
- "The world is filled with millions of people who think they are headed for heaven-but they are deadly wrong. Probably most people think heaven awaits them, but it doesn't." (Hard to Believe)
- "I have no idea how the fans of Christianity Lite reconcile their approach to religion with the teachings of Jesus, or how they become comfortable ignoring what He said. But the only acceptable approach — for me and you — is to take our Lord at His word in the single source of truth for every authentic Christian: the word of God revealed in the Bible." (Hard to Believe)
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite SupporterJohnofJapan said:It is impossible to "receive Christ as Lord" or "make Christ Lord of your life." He IS Lord, always has been and always will be.Click to expand...
And I venture to add, Jesus Christ is Lord of all, whether the heathen acknowledge it or not, whether the world acknowledges it or not, whether the devils in hell acknowledge it or not, He is LORD.
And the day is coming and now is, when every knee in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, shall bow, and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
This is a truth that is eternal in origin.
This is as self-evident as the truth that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved'', but the name of Jesus, and the heathen may not know His name, they may not acknowledge His Name and call on other names, the atheists may not believe in that Name, but there is only One Name under heaven whereby salvation is given, and that is the Name of Jesus.
Acknowledgement of that Name, or knowledge of that Name, or acceptance of that Name, or submission to His Name, is not the issue. The same thing with Lordship.
Acknowledgement of His Lordship, knowledge of His Lordship, acceptance of His Lordship, or submission to His Lordship, is not the issue. -
It is impossible to "receive Christ as Lord" or "make Christ Lord of your life." He IS Lord, always has been and always will be.Click to expand...
Not only is it possible, but it is commanded of us. Christ is Lord, but that doesn't mean that one can not allow the Lord to control his/her individual life.
Jesus IS Savior, but that doesn't mean that everyone will accept Him as such.
One day everyone will acknowledge Him as Lord, but we need to do that when it counts and before we are forced to acknowledge that Truth!
Making Christ the Ruler over your life is a choice that each individual must make. We can either allow the Spirit to work in our lives or we can quench the working of the Spirit in our lives. The choice is up to us. -
When one accepts Christ as Saviour perhaps initially Christ is Lord of His life. But he does not always remain Lord. That is why provision is made in 1John 1:9 to go to him on a daily basis and confess our sins for he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all iniquity. This is not speaking of salvation, but of fellowship.
If Christ was Lord, 100% of the time, there would be no sin in the believer's life, no need of confession of sin, no need of prayer for other believers, and no need for the judgement seat of Christ. There would be no loss of reward. We would all be at a state of perfect and entire sanctification. But alas that is not the case. Christ is not Lord all the time. We fail. We sin. When we give into temptaion and sin, how can we dare say that at those times in our lives Christ is still Lord? Is he Lord of our sin also?
I have the privilege of getting in the last word. But then again I have not previously posted on this thread, so I thought I throw in my two cents worth. :)
The thread has gone past 30 pages and it is time for it to close. Please start a new one if you so feel inclined.
DHK
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