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is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JesusFan, Apr 8, 2011.

  1. WestminsterMan

    WestminsterMan New Member

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    Because I am not and rcc apologist. I am only defending my positions - not Catholic doctrine per se. If they happen to sometimes align with the RCC, that is of no concern to me. For example, you hold to the Trinity don't you? Oh oh - that's Catholic doctrine. Hmmmm....

    Look...If you guys want to argue RCC doctrine, then let an actual RCC apologist on the BB.

    WM
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    There is no baptist or baptist church that I have heard of that aligns with rcc doctrine that you believe. Praying and worshipping mary and other humans?

    You have been exposed my friend. The fact you even know the bb doesn't allow rcc members reiks. Enjoy your short time here.
     
  3. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    OK, if not saints who have died, then who are the people the Bible calls "the dead in Christ"?

    Context, my Catholic friend, context. One is relational, the other positional.

    Nope. However, we can see from what is written in scripture that those things that are not written in scripture will not contradict those things that are written in scripture.

    Then tell me how my "interpretation" is wrong, particularly since I haven't interpreted anything, and then explain to us why your interpretation is the correct one.

    Please show me the specific part of that passage where it says that dead saints can hear our prayers and that we are to pray to them.

    How about Stephen? Is he dead?

    Actually, I do know that. But just as all pickup trucks are automobiles, but not all automobiles are pickup trucks, so all prayer is a form of worship, even if it is not always supplication.

    Who are those people the Bible refers to as "the dead in Christ"?

    No, actually, you haven't.

    ...which just happen by an amazing coincidence to be the same as Roman Catholic positions, even to the point that you use Roman Catholic arguments ver batem.

    Of course you can. I just think it's a little misleading to choose a name that implies that you have a reformed background.
     
  4. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    >What if God chooses that someone in heaven can hear us?

    That is one of the things Protestant theology teaches that God can't do. Much of theology is about convincing people that God can't do lots of stuff. Like regeneration a person who never heard of Jesus. God can't do that, right? Even if he wanted to, right? Because the Bible "says" he will not, right? God is "stuck" with the Bible as we have it, right? Especially the KJV, right?
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Are you rcc now?
     
  6. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    On a thread like this, don't we need to be sure that we all mean the same thing when we use the word "saint"?

    I ask that because the Roman Catholic meaning is far different to the biblical meaning. In the bible, "saint" is another word for "Christian", and nobody in the bible is referred to as "Saint So-and-So" - "saint" doesn't refer to someone from an elite group. The following is an extract from a Roman Catholic site where the word "Church" in most cases means the Roman Catholic organisation:
    How does the Church choose saints?

    Canonization, the process the Church uses to name a saint, has only been used since the tenth century. For hundreds of years, starting with the first martyrs of the early Church, saints were chosen by public acclaim. Though this was a more democratic way to recognize saints, some saints' stories were distorted by legend and some never existed. Gradually, the bishops and finally the Vatican took over authority for approving saints.

    In 1983, Pope John Paul II made sweeping changes in the canonization procedure. The process begins after the death of a Catholic whom people regard as holy. Often, the process starts many years after death in order give perspective on the candidate. The local bishop investigates the candidate's life and writings for heroic virtue (or martyrdom) and orthodoxy of doctrine. Then a panel of theologians at the Vatican evaluates the candidate. After approval by the panel and cardinals of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, the pope proclaims the candidate "venerable."

    The next step, beatification, requires evidence of one miracle (except in the case of martyrs). Since miracles are considered proof that the person is in heaven and can intercede for us, the miracle must take place after the candidate's death and as a result of a specific petition to the candidate. When the pope proclaims the candidate beatified or "blessed," the person can be venerated by a particular region or group of people with whom the person holds special importance.

    Only after one more miracle will the pope canonize the saint (this includes martyrs as well). The title of saint tells us that the person lived a holy life, is in heaven, and is to be honored by the universal Church.
     
  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Actually, that's not quite correct. Contraception is not regarded as a mortal sin and, in any event, the catechism says that in all instances the individual's conscience takes precedence.
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Mortal sin? than 99% of all people would be in hell! Can you say venial. You just burn in purgatory till somebody buys you a mass card or two or three. Of course, nobody believes that any more. today that have power ball & raffles & bingo to take care of that sort of thing.:laugh:
     
  9. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    You know, it's funny but when I talk to Catholics over on CARM, this is precisely the sort of game they play.

    We've never said that God can't do anything. What we say is that God, because God will not contradict His Word.

    It's not a matter of whether or not God is capable of doing something, but whether or not it's consistent with His character or His stated ways of doing something.

    And can you please answer the questions I asked you yesterday?
     
  10. Priscilla Ann

    Priscilla Ann Member

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    Check the EWTN website or the Catholic Answers website. You will see that their view differs greatly from yours. I will check my copy of the Catechism for the "official" teaching.
     
  11. WestminsterMan

    WestminsterMan New Member

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    And how could one not know this... There are threads replete with the information. No one here makes a secret of it so why are you so torqued about it? I think I know why....

    Hmmm...

    WM
     
  12. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    Oh, good. You're back. Now you can answer the questions I asked you yesterday.
     
  13. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Catholics do not consider their Catechism as "official" teaching. It is instructional in their eyes, but not "official." That comes from the top down only. I've been in debates with Catholics on this issue and have been burned by referring to their own Catechism.

    At the end of the day, attempting to pin down a Catholic on ANY point of dogma or doctrine is most difficult as they have "Sacred Tradition" to counter any propositional argument that comes their way, except what is spoken "ex cathedra" by the pontiff, and then subject to interpretation by ST once again. A most frustrating experience... Makes arguing with some of the off-kilt Baptists on this board like child's play in comparison, though there are similarities, especially when dealing with Webdob, Robert Snow, MB, Van, and a few others around here that make up stuff as they go.
     
  14. WestminsterMan

    WestminsterMan New Member

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    The dead in Christ are those who have died physically, yet live with Him in heaven. Notice the operative word “live”. They are certainly more alive than you or I.

    Again… interperative my JW friend. How does it feel?

    I never said that it does. And the fact that God allows us to be heard by the saints does not contradict scripture either. Let me ask you this… do you believe that only God can hear us (I.e. that mere creatures cannot?) Is that your position?

    Well, if the position that you are espousing (I.e. that saints are dead to us) is not your interpretation, then it is most certainly someone’s interpretation - and one with which you obviously agree.

    Gladly! It is correct because it is based on scripture.

    Matt 22:31-32 - And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.’

    The holy people (Saints) who have gone before us are more alive than we are. As this verse says, God is the God of the living, not the dead; it makes it clear in naming Abraham, Isaac & Jacob as being alive.

    Matt 17:1-3 – “Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

    Departed Saints like Moses & Elijah are again pictured intensely interested in earthly affairs. We are all in Christ - alive in Him as a community of believers.

    Mark 12:26-27 - And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.’

    The Saints in heaven are more alive and aware of what’s going on than we are. They are not separated from the Body of Christ, but more united to it and therefore more united to us. Their love for us is now unblemished, and through their love of God they desire God’s blessing for us.

    Luke 20:36-38 - Indeed they cannot die any more, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection. And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.’

    Hmmm… those who die in the Lord “Cannot die . . they are equal to angels.... But that the dead are raised. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live in Him.” When we die on earth, we are dead to the physical, but alive in Christ. The Saints are alive in the Spirit of Christ.

    Matt 27:50-53 – “Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

    Here Jesus calls on the Saints that were already dead in a loud voice and they appeared to many on earth. We see that Saints CAN communicate with those physically alive through Jesus Christ. It is not impossible.

    Luke 15:10 - In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

    Angels in heaven (not on earth) can hear those that repent their sins. Hmmm… The Angels can hear us but the Saints cannot?

    Jeremiah 31:15-16 – “Thus says the Lord: A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more. Thus says the Lord: Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for there is a reward for your work, says the Lord: they shall come back from the land of the enemy; “

    Rachel intercedes for her children (Israel). This is years after Rachel's death, and the text says her “voice was heard” and her prayers were answered. Pretty clear actually.

    Hebrews 12:1
    “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

    Hmmm. I wonder who that “great cloud of witnesses” could be? Notice the word “cloud”… It’s the same cloud spoken of in the transfiguration where Jesus called Elijah and Moses back to Earth.

    Yet none of this can happen because, in your theology, they’re all dead!

    I did already. If you take everything in context with Revelation 5:8, it should be abundantly clear. Here it is again:

    Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people."

    These are creatures (as are we, the Angels, and Saints) who – through the power of God – are holding bowls containing the prayers of God’s people. There you have it!

    Physically? Yes! Yet his spirit lives eternally.

    I pray thee tell… :rolleyes:

    See the above missive...

    Well then… if they agree with me, then they must be correct on those points! Seriously, why not quote my entire statement. I’ve already written that if by chance my beliefs align with the rcc, that is of no concern to me. And while we’re on the subject – neither is your opinion of it.

    Hog wash! You have no idea why I chose that moniker. Perhaps I was born in Westminster Vermont. Or perhaps that’s my dog’s name. Why not act like an adult and drop the puritanical, self righteous schoolmarm attitude.

    WM
     
    #74 WestminsterMan, Apr 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2011
  15. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    Before I get into this, I just want to point out that this is yet another post where you refuse to answer my questions. I can't help but wonder what you're so afraid of.

    So then you admit that they have died. Someone who has died is dead.

    Again, we're not talking about whether or not they're alive in Heaven, but whether they are alive to us.

    I used to work with retarded children, so I'm used to it.

    So then, you've never said that we can pray to Mary or other saints?

    So then, the dead who know nothing, now know something?

    Yes. I believe the Bible's teaching that God is the only one who is omnipresent to hear our prayers.

    It's what the Bible says.
    No, actually, it isn't.

    Debunked this argument already.

    Are they in Heaven? If so, how did they get there? Were they all assumed into Heaven while alive? Or were they taken to Heaven upon death?

    And they were dead.

    Why do you suppose the Bible gives us an account of Moses' death?

    The issue is not whether or not they're aware, or even whether or not they're alive in Heaven. The issue is whether or not we are to pray to them. Clearly, the Bible says that we are not to pray to them.

    Luke 20:36-38 - Indeed they cannot die any more, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection. And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.’

    Interesting that you chose to omit the words "any more".

    Yeah...and?

    Actually, this wasn't a literal event. It's speaking of the faithful Jews of the OT being led to Heaven upon the completion of Christ's atonement.

    Where does this verse ever say that the angels rejoice when a sinner repents and not at the Bema Seat?

    Again, this is poetic language, not literal.

    Again, not literal. It's referring to their testimony, not the individual people. And, again, even if it was, that would be irrelevant because the issue isn't whether or not they're watching us, but whether or not we are to pray to them and the Bible is very clear that we are not.

    No you didn't. You cited Rev 5:8, which doesn't answer the question.

    Thank you. You admit that he did die. So why should we pray to this dead man and not to God?

    See the above missive...

    How can they be correct by agreeing with someone who's wrong?

    I know exactly why you did it. You did it because you're a Catholic troll. That's why you were unable to answer my question, a question that any Baptist and certainly anyone who has a reformed background could answer easily.
     
  16. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Simple enough question...
    Does the OFFICIAl RC teaching on salvation mean it is a combo package of grace of God+ man own works or not?

    If yes, doesn't that make it a false Church preaching a false Gospel?

    Not saying Catho;ics cannot be saved, just that it would be by the "protestant" Gospel, as the RC version of it seems to not be able to save!
    They would be saved "despite" their Church teaching, not due to it!
     
    #76 JesusFan, Apr 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2011
  17. WestminsterMan

    WestminsterMan New Member

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    I answered every question in your post.

    Dead physically? Yes. Alive in heaven? Yes!

    I've shown you scripture in support of this.

    Well, I disagree with the underlying premise that ALL prayer is worship. In that context, we most certainly can.

    That would be your position [that the dead know nothing] and one which you have yet to prove. Just saying it means nothing. Again... I've shown you scripture indicating that they do. Can you shown me anything to the contrary?

    So if no one but God can hear us, how is it that Satan and his demons [mere creatures] can?

    No - scripture says we are to worship no one but God. Since I (and most reliable dictionaries/sources) disagree with your narrow definition of the word "pray", then I also disagree with your interpretation on the matter.

    Again, that's your interpretation and a convenient one at that.

    It doesn't say anything about the "Bema Seat" Here's what it says:
    Luke 15:10 - In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

    See the above.

    Physically, YES! How many times do I need to repeat this before you comprehend my position?

    Why should'nt we? Again this goes right back to YOUR idea that all prayer is worship.

    I'm not following you on this one...

    And you must be Carnac the Magnificent!

    I think any honest reader can see that I've answered your questions. You simply don't like the answers.

    WM
     
  18. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    OK. Here is every one of your posts to me since I asked you yesterday:

    No answer.

    Nothing there.

    Still no answer.

    Nothing there, either.

    As usual, no answer.

     
  19. Priscilla Ann

    Priscilla Ann Member

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    Here is a quote from #2370 of the Catechism:

    "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible, is intrinsically evil."

    Also, #2399:

    "The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhoood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception".

    How do you interpret these quotes from the Catechism?
     
  20. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    Nada.

    So there you go. Eight posts and not only did you not answer the question, there was no mention of the WSC at all.

    So not only are you a fool, but a liar as well.

    And now, as the Bible instructs us not to argue with fools, goodbye.
     
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