is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

I other words, The Tanakh contains sufficient information for salvation and the resurrection is icing on the cake. A person who does not believe and have faith in Tanakh will not believe in and have faith in the resurrection. The NT is commentary on the OT.

 

I know that some people are in heaven, I’m just not sure of whom that would be.

A message never sent anyone to hell – people send themselves there by the way they live.

First, unless you are God you wouldn't know that.

Certainly… see post #99

So if no one but God can hear us, how is it that Satan and his demons [mere creatures] can? Hmmm...

Not at all. I have repeatedly stated explicitly that this can only happen by God’s power. You are being somewhat disingenuous DHK.

Oh please! Surely you know the difference between the body and the spirit. Or do you believe in soul sleep? It sure sounds like you do.

Perhaps. And your point is?

Well the general resurrection hasn’t, but there have been others who were resurected from the dead. Here are two examples – Lazarus, and those saints who arose from their graves after Christ was resurrected (just not to their glorified bodies.) See post #99.

Hmmm… I see. So where do you think a person’s soul goes when they die?

Oh - so they went from a spirit back to a corpse? That’s an amazing idea and one that has no scriptural backing what-so-ever. And you accuse me of imagining…

Sure we do and I’ve given you plenty of reasons why. See post #99.

Well, I can say the same of you and with equal authority I might add.

Notice that I said “…as a community of believers.” You do know what that means don’t you?

Nope.

You have no idea who is saved and who isn’t.

Again - see post #99.

See post #99.

Some have already been raised. See post #99

Their physical bodies are. See post #99.

WM

 

Agreed... that is the larger point of the passage.

WM

 

I have bolded the part in the passage which you fail to comprehend. The question I asked: When did the dead rise again?
The answer, right in the Scripture you posted--not until after the resurrection, which was more than 40 days later. His "loud voice" (which wasn't so loud) considering the weakened state of his body, had nothing to do with the "resurrection" of these saints. You know nothing of this event either. The Bible gives little information about it.

These are your exact words

Jesus never called on Saints that were already dead. That is not true. It is adding to the Word of God. It isn't in the Word of God. He never called on any saints.

Now you backtrack and say It doesn't say that. But you did say that. It is exactly what you said. I just quoted it. Go back and read your own post. You can't have it both ways. You are posting heresy.

Your sequence is deceptive.

The last two did not happen until after the resurrection over 40 days later. Read your Bible. Look, here are the events of the crucifixion:

I. The First Three Hours on the Cross: 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. (Lk.23:32-49).
A. Jesus prayed that His accusers be forgiven.

His first saying, "Father forgive them; for they know not what they do (Lk.23:34).

B. The soldiers cast lots for His garments (a seamless garment
C. The Jews and the multitude ridiculed Christ (Mt.27:38-44).
D. The dying thief repented.

"Today thou shalt be with me in paradise" (his second saying).

E. Jesus committed Mary to John.

"Woman behold thy son" (his third statement).

II. The Three Dark Hours: 12:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m. (Mt.27:45-60).
A. This was not an eclipse for there was a full moon.
B. Silence reigned and all were terrified.
C. Christ went through His greatest sufferings.

"My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?" or "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" (Aramaic): his fourth saying.

Jesus spoke a fifth time: "I thirst" (Jn.19:28).

Jesus took some wine offered him (the Greek word is different from vs.34, not having the pain-killing effect).

Christ said "It is finished" and gave up the ghost. (There were seven sayings of Christ on
the cross, this was the sixth).

The seventh and final saying: "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Lk.23:46).

He gave up the ghost, literally dismissed his spirit, an act of the will.
D. The veil was rent from top to bottom.
E. A great earthquake took place.
F. The centurion, beholding all these events, admitted that Jesus is the Son of God. Tradition says his name was Longinus, who eventually became a preacher, and died a martyr's death.
G. Joseph of Arimathea took the body and buried it.

H. The tombs of the saints were opened. (This didn’t happen until after the resurrection).

Yes, with this admission you have contradicted yourself. This event is no where near "his loud voice" is it.

That statement does not refute what I said to you.
"Nowhere does it say that we can communicate with those that are physically alive through Christ."
Physically alive, spiritually alive, physically dead, spiritually dead, whatever; they cannot communicate with us who are on earth. Don't post heretical statements unless you can back so-called heresy with scripture and demonstrate that it is not heresy. Such statements are condemned in the Bible as necromancy.

 

Your statement is that angels rejoice in heaven when one soul repents on earth. What does that prove? How does that prove communication between those on earth to those in heaven? It doesn't. My statement is that mankind is made lower than the angels. One angel in the OT killed 186,000 men. Obviously they have greater powers than men.
Besides…

That has nothing to do with this life does it?

And what has that to do with the Moses and Elijah of the Transfiguration that you mentioned.
Your words:

"Hmmm. I wonder who that “great cloud of witnesses” could be? Notice the word “cloud”… It’s the same cloud spoken of in the transfiguration where Jesus called Elijah and Moses back to Earth. "

Again nothing to do with Moses and Elijah of the Transfiguration.

Whose theology?

You say it is not symbolic:
Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people."
What are the four living creatures? the 24 elders? the bowls of incense?
You don't know. You can only guess. This is apocalyptic literature, and apocalyptic literature is highly symbolic.
So, who is the one being ridiculous?

A false assumption. It doesn't say that they know the contents of what is in the bowl. And they wouldn't know. They are not omniscient. Only God is. You are attributing to these saints attributes that belong only to God, a fallacy that RCC's make all the time. Thus you make them all little gods, in effect idolatry. Let me give you a better example. They pray to Mary, and expect Mary to hear and answer their prayers. There are one billion Catholics spread all over the world. How can Mary hear all the prayers of all the Catholics spread all over the world unless she is both omnipresent and omniscient--attributes which are attributable only to God. The same is true of what you are saying of these saints. They cannot know the contents. They are simply offering up the contents of the bowl. God alone knows our prayers. He alone knows our hearts. Not any saint.

The passage is prophetic. Literally it refers to Israel being taken captive from Ramah and going down into Egypt. See also Jer.40:1. But this passage is prophetic of Herod slaughter of the children in Mat.2:17,18, where Matthew quotes the same passage. There is no passage where those who have passed on are interceding for those on earth. Where is the intercession. Rachel wept for her children, who had gone into captivity. Rachel is the name of the wife of Israel. Israel is the other name of Jacob. It was Israel that went into captivity.

Luke 16:19-31
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Even in Abraham’s Bosom/Sheol the spirits of the dead could intercede for the living on Earth. How much more so can those saints in Heaven![/quote]
Where does it say that? Abraham says the opposite. The rich man asked if Lazarus could go back and talk to those on earth. Abraham said no. And as the last verse indicates: If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets (the Word of God), neither would they listen to Lazarus (if one would rise from the dead.
This decimates your argument.

 

The way I use the term, Matt, is in reference to those who believe that the Bible is their final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. The RCC does not do that. They put tradition over the Bible as a greater authority, (as a general rule). Most often their appeal is to either the Church Fathers, or their Catechism. I do not consider them "Bible-believing Christians." For the most part they do not encourage reading the Bible at all. As well, we know that most of their doctrines go directly contrary to the Bible.

When we come to the Charismatics, many of them are evangelical Christians. However, many of them put their experience above the Word of God, and they tend to rely on experience more than the Word. Many believe that they are saved because they are saved. Many believe that they must have a subsequent blessing or they are not spiritual. The constant seeking for a tangible experience is not biblical. It is putting experience before the Bible.

There are modernistic so-called Christians. I am sure that we can agree that in these "dead" denominations, that though they may hold to the name "Christian" those that deny the inspiration of the Bible, and even other fundamental doctrines such as the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of the Lord are not saved, or are not Christians. Saying you are a Christian does not make you one.
Thus I use the term "Bible-believing" Christian to differentiate one who has been born again, and actually believes and acts upon the Bible in contrast to those who just say they are Christians but their doctrine and lives don't show it.

 

Oh & your good at it too. Do you understand the original usage of the word "decimates" ?

for your edification .... Latin decimatus, past participle of decimare, from decimus tenth, from decem ten

Actually a form of execution by the Roman Field commanders on their own armies meted out as a form of punishment to select by lot and kill every tenth man. Funny you should use that particular word in this instance.:smilewinkgrin:

 

Actually, I don't disagree with you on this. There is a different state of creation between the living and the physically dead. We were created lower than the angels in our corporeal existence. When we go to heaven we will be able to "...judge the angels."

It's relevent because you're claiming that Moses and Elijah are dead. Yet they were alive at the Transfiguration. It provides biblical precedence to the contrary.

Wrong! Scripture does and it's right in front of your face. All you need do is read it.

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people." See my question below...*

No, I am not making them "little" gods - that is what you wish me to say. I've said before that this can only take place by the power of God.

Well, don't you think God's power could handle that? Apparently not.

*I noticed that you side stepped my question on this. Let me ask it again.

If no one but God can hear us, then how is it that Satan and his demons [mere creatures] can?

On the contrary - it actually proves it! The fact that he was asking IS the act of intercession. There you have the example that you were looking for. The dead interceding on behalf of the living - in this case, his brothers. :thumbs:

Read my posts. Here is what I posted ... the last of which, you conveniently left out.

Well DHK, this brings up another question that you have avoided answering.
Where does the soul go after physical death?

I have backed it up by scripture. You just cannot accept something so radically detrimental to your man-made belief system.

Oh my...You don't even understand the definition of the word. I guess I'll have to help you out there DHK.

From MerriamWebster.com:

Definition of NECROMANCY
1: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
2: magic, sorcery

The Witch of Endor would be an example of necromancy.

This is an occult practice DHK.
WM

 

YES!!! Another RCC thread with no Roman Catholics here to defend themselves!!! :thumbs:

Boy, I miss the good old days with some of the old posters, Roman Catholic and otherwise, and the great debates we had, before the 'Great Purge'. At least it is good to see my Anglican brother Matt Black is still posting here.

 

The rcc is represented on this very thread.

 

WD.....are you saying your a secret papist?

 

And there are others also. They just don't like to debate, and as a general rule stay in the fellowship forums.

 

Quite possibly,yes. Still, I miss the days when folks like Carson Weber and Brother Ed (and others) could come in here as openly Roman Catholics and debate their points, as I recall having several disagreements yet great discussions with them. Good times.

 

Actually, WestminsterBoy is a Roman Catholic troll. He's been here all throughout the thread.

Anglican? Well, that explains a lot.

 

You may be right...his arguments aren't something I'd see a typical Baptist make--unless he's still a baptist officially but has been coming around to RCC views on things.

Really? Explains a lot of what, specifically?

 

If that was all it was, then that would be one thing.

But if you look at his arguments and compare them with the arguments of the Catholics on CARM and Catholic.com and then compare them with the Catholic talking points on CatholicAnswers.net, it's very clear that he's promoting Catholic talking points.

He's a Catholic troll here to deceive those who are weak in the faith and the moderators need to do something about it.

The Anglicans are a doctrinal trainwreck. Matt Black is extremely liberal and does not have a Biblical world view.

 

I agree, there is a strong similarity between his arguments and theirs.

Ultimately, the BB can decide who to allow on this board, BUT it seems to me that instead of banning someone (out of an alleged concern for a 'weaker brother') for their views, the better approach would be to demonstrate the falseness of them.

Well, that depends. I'd of course argue that classical orthodox Anglicanism is doctrinally sound. However, I certainly agree that there are many in the Anglican communion, particularly in 'The Episcopal Church' here in America who are heterodox if not downright apostate. Of course one can find certain Baptists who are doctrinal trainwrecks as well.

I guess I don't share that impression, and I have interacted with him on this board for years. However, I'll let him defend himself against that charge. The judgment that one "does not have a Biblical world view" of course depends, in large part, on the interpretive framework of the one making the judgment.

 

So you don't believe the Scriptures? That is a shame!

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. (Psalms 8:5)

Would you like it posted in another language?
We are created lower than the angels. Period. There is no room for disagreement here. What you are referring to is a future event, and a moot point since it has nothing to do with anyone here communicating with anyone in heaven. When is the last time you spoke to an angel??

You must harmonize all of Scripture. With your statements here you make the Scriptures contradict each other or lie. The Bible definitely states:
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (1 Corinthians 15:20)
--Christ is the firstfruits, the first one to rise from the dead. No one has risen from the dead before him. It means that he is the first one to have a permanent resurrection body. Now you must re-work your theology around this statement. Its truth is stated in many other places in the NT.

Wrong???
Are you saying that those saints are omniscient? Are you a polytheist, believing in many gods as the Hindus do? I have read the verse. It doesn't say that any of those saints know the content of the prayers.

We are having an election soon. If I work as a returning officer, I take the ballot box to the appropriate place where the ballots are counted. As a returning officer, do I know the contents of the box? No. I am not omniscient. I do not know who voted for what people. The results will be made after the votes are counted.
The picture here are prayers contained in the bowls. There is nothing to say that these saints are knowledgeable enough to know what is in the contents of the bowl except that they are (ballots), that is the prayers of the saints. That is all they know. Only God hears our prayers. When I pray to God, it is a direct call. There are no "party lines."

God does not go against his nature, nor his word, nor his promises. You seem to have made God your personal little puppet, put him in your pocket, and take him out whenever it is convenient for you to use him. That is typical for most Catholics. Go to confession one day a week, like like the devil the rest of the week, and then go back to confession and make things all right with his god again.

The God of the Bible doesn't operate that way. If you want to carry your god around in your pocket at your own convenience there are other religions to join. But they are not Christian.

Are you afraid that Satan and his demons can hear your thoughts? Do you live in fear? I know that they can't hear my thoughts. Only God can. Neither is Satan omnipresent. Only God is. Satan is ubiquitous. That means that he has enough demons to cover the areas of the world that it seems that he is every where. But he isn't. Satan himself can only be in one place at one time.

You have much to learn. They were both in the place for the departed dead. They were both dead. Sheol had two compartments, as Jesus described, separated by a great chasm which no man could pass. Lazarus could not come from "paradise", the place of the departed saved souls, to "hell", the place of the departed unsaved souls. Nor could he communicate with any that were on earth. It again defeats your argument.

When Jesus said to the thief "Today you shall be with me in paradise," it was only briefly. For then, after his death, he took the saints from paradise to heaven with him. Now only "hell" remains. There is no communication any longer. Those OT saints are now in heaven, not in that compartment once called paradise.

You left it out the 40 days when you first posted it. Don't be deceptive.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:6-9)
--Some equate the soul to the mind. This is assuming there is a difference between the soul and the spirit, and that the soul is simply the "breath of life," as animals have "the breath of life." In Genesis 1:24, the word "nephesh" or soul is used to describe the animals that God created. Therefore animals have souls. It simply means life and refers to the mind. It dies. The spirit is that which lives on. It is the spirit which can communicate with God. It is the spirit which enables man to be made in God's image and likeness.

No, you haven't backed it up with Scripture.

Let me give you some advice.
When defining Biblical terms go to Biblical sources. Secular dictionaries are not always the best sources since such words are defined differently in the Bible. I will give you some other sources.

(Deu 18:10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

(Deu 18:11) Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

This is exactly what the Catholics do, especially when they pray to Mary.
Mary is dead. They pray to her for all sorts of things.
There is no difference between the Catholics praying to a dead Mary, and the lieutenant governor of the province of Quebec here in Canada is a Spiritist. By her own testimony, she goes into her bedroom and prays to her deceased grandparents. What is the difference between her praying to her dead grandfather and a Catholic praying to a dead Mary? None. The one is a Catholic, and the other is involved in the occult. It is the same thing.

Adam Clarke is a well known commentator. He is frequently quoted in the theology forum. "One who seeks from or inquires of the dead. That is exactly what the Catholics do.

 

I do - just not the way you interpret them.

No argument there. But it's a meaningless point to the topic at hand.

Sure - how about Sanskrit?

Well, I speak to mine everyday. Don't you?

I never said that Christ wasn't the first to have a resurected body. I said that there are examples of people being resurected from the dead other than Christ. Straw man!

Well that's the point isn't it - it doesn't say. However, you are stating emphatically that they could NOT know the contents.

Neither are the saints in heaven omnicient. Let's take your example a little further. What if you were asked to hand count the ballots in a court ordered recount - the courts would then give you the authority to see how each person voted. You are to the court as the saints in heaven are to God. Try again!

And you know the mind of God? I think not!

You answered a question that I did not ask. You said that only God can hear our prayers. Yet if we pray aloud Satan most certainly can if he is present – so can his demons. So I’ll ask you once more:

If no one but God can hear us, then how is it that Satan and his demons [mere creatures] can?

Clearly, you don’t understand the concept of intercession. It has nothing to do with communicating with those on earth. To intercede means to make an interposing or pleading on behalf of another person. This is precisely what the rich man was doing. He did it on behalf of his family. You asked me to provide you with an example in scripture where the dead interceded on behalf of the living - not whether or not they can communicate - that's a seperate issue. I’ve given it to you. My argument is proven by that fact, and there’s really not much you can say in refutation. Deal with it.

To be dead means to cease to exist. Mary is in heaven with her son Jesus. Thus, she is not dead.

So, in your estimation Catholics are just as bad as a witch and a Satanist? Hmmm…

OK. Now that we have our terms defined, let me ask it again.

Where does the “spirit” go after physical death?

WM

 

You are off on a rabbit trail. There are no recounts in heaven. There is one picture. There are saints offering bowls to God, and that is all. The prayers, only God knows. And no recount is needed. God does not forget our prayers. He does not have to back and check what they were. He does not need a recount. God does not have Alzheimer's as you suggest. He does not have memory loss or fails at arithmetic. He already knows the outcome.

And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth. Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken. (1 Samuel 1:12-13)

Prayer is speaking to God. It need not be aloud. It is speaking from the heart. That is normally how I pray.

However, if by your inference your example of prayer is like this:
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. (Luke 18:11)
--Then I feel sorry for you; perhaps you are like this:

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. (Matthew 6:5)
--Then you have your reward. I prefer not to pray aloud. And that is not what I was talking about. Thus when I pray, the demons do not know what I am praying. But, yes, I can see how they know what you are praying, now that you have explained yourself.

You don't understand the matter of intercession.
Deal with Scripture and the matter of intercession.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)
--There is only one intercessor (mediator) and that is Christ. Mary cannot do it. The saints cannot do it. No one, but Christ himself can intercede on my behalf. Certainly no priest can do it. Only Christ has that position. This is what the Bible teaches.

Look again:
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1)
--There is only advocate, go-between, intercessor, and that is Christ. There is none other. Not a priest, not Mary, not any saint. Only Christ can do this job. The RCC is totally unscriptural in this area. In fact they are heretical.

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:14-15)
--Christ is our high priest. He is the only one that can make intercession for us. There is none other. This is what the Scriptures teach.

The dead cannot "intercede" for the living. It is impossible. It goes against all Scripture. You try and use parabolic Scripture for this?? Those in hell can wail for all eternity but their requests will be repeatedly denied. That can hardly be called intercession can it? In hell there will only be weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is a place of eternal torment. No request will ever be able to be made from there. Your example fails.