is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?

"Sacred Tradition" seems to be the justification for any Catholic teaching that can't be supported by scripture.

 

Yes, scripture says much about it, but lets see what the Master says about it:

Matt 5:22

22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

 

That has been my impression...

 

That is the ridiculous, nonsensical gobbledegoop that Catholics think we will fall for, in their silly attempt to justify their goddess worship

 

Go slow... take a deep breath... and re-read posts #74 and #77. If there is a question of yours that I didn't answer, then ask it again. Further, I asked you a few questions that have apparently sent you to ground. A little reciprocity would be nice.

WM

 

Actually, the Bible calls people fools on many occasions. Jesus' point was the intent behind the word, not the word, itself.

 

And there you have it ladies and gentleman... if you can't handle a rational debate simply call the opposition names, claim victory, and run away. Notice how he avoided several questions that I put to him, all the while claiming that I didn't answer HIS question.

WM

 

I believe that "gobbledegoop" is called dulia, hyperdulia, and latria. That's them big Ol' Greek words that them Catholics use.

Just FYI...

WM

 

Here's some information about the terms in question.

Note that latria is worship, while both dulia and hyperdulia are considered veneration. This is pure semantics on the part of the RCC. It doesn't change the fact that both are synonyms for worship as far as the Bible is considered.

The definition of veneration is worship, which comes from its origin as given above. The definition of worship is homage paid to a god. The words are the same in meaning. The artificial differences given by the RCC is a false dichotomy to give an excuse to the world that they can say that they are not committing idolatry, when in fact they do. Every time they "venerate" or worship Mary or any of the saints it is worship or idolatry. It is a transgression of the Ten commandments. The fine distinction made by the RCC is made only by them, not by others. We don't go by their definitions, but rather by Biblical definitions.



The word worship or worshipped is found over 170 times in the Bible.

The word venerate or veneration is not even found once.



The reason: Venerate is a Latin word. The NT was written in Greek. Venerate is a synonym for worship used in the Latin language.

 

First, unless you are God you wouldn't know that. The RCC theology sends people to Hell, not to heaven. They don't believe in salvation by grace through faith (the message of salvation), but rather the accursed message of salvation through works--a message that can only send a person to hell.
At a Catholic funeral I heard a priest trying to "pray a deceased person" into heaven. What a pitiful scene. She had already died, and as far as her life and beliefs were concerned was already in hell. The priest could not do anything about it. Her family went to the cemetery. Some prayed to her. They prayed to the dead. They prayed as those who have no hope. Some prayed: "I hope you are in heaven..." And some: "I know you are looking down from heaven...," but in reality they didn't have that assurance. They indeed prayed to the dead.

Why? Because a person separated from God is in an eternal state of eternal death. That is what death is: separation from God. And someday they will stand before God and meet their final sentence: The Second Death.
Yes, they pray to the dead.

How foolish is this statement. Where in the Bible does it indicate that God allows us to be heard by the "saints" in heaven? Scripture please. This is your imagination speaking. God alone is omniscient. God alone knows our hearts, thoughts, and prayers. No one else can claim that ability. You are putting those in heaven on the same pedestal as God, and that is blasphemous.

If the "saints" are not dead, then why do we have cemeteries? Why the burial grounds? Why do people go and visit their loved ones that are already "dead and gone." The answer is that they are "dead", not alive. Do not people in your extended family die?

The Scripture quoted assumes that there are dead, doesn't it. Most Catholics fall into that realm for they don't have a clue what the gospel is, and they have never believed it.
As far as the living are concerned, the resurrection has not yet taken place.

And yet Isaac was only comforted after his mother's death when he married. Why was that? His mother had died. She still is dead. He will not meet his mother until the resurrection. There is something that you are missing here.

This was a supernatural event that will never be repeated again. Note that even Christ was changed at that time. We surmise therefore that as Christ was changed back into his former self, so too were Elijah and Moses. We have no reason to believe otherwise. As Christ at that time did not have his glorified resurrected body, neither did Moses. There are things about that event you obviously don't understand.

No, all are not alive in Christ. Are you a universalist? Most Catholics are not alive in Christ. All the ones I talk to are dead in Christ. They don't have a clue what it means to be saved, and I have talked to hundreds.

Alzheimer's? You quoted that verse already.

Again, give Scripture for this thought that comes from your imagination, or in reality, the imagination of the RCC.

Psalm 8 tells us that we are created lower than the angels. So you are wrong on this point. Neither are the angels "the children of God," as we are. Read John 1:12 and perhaps you will understand that. "The fact that the dead are raised," you say. The dead have not been raised. You are a very confused man.

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. (Psalms 8:5)
--Get your facts straight.

The dead are not raised.

What do you see in a cemetery. The grave stones remain undisturbed. The dead still lie dead.

 

You do err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.
Read the account again. When did the dead rise again. Compare the different gospel accounts. What happened to them after they arose? Why is Jesus called the first-fruits of the resurrection? Where does it say that Jesus called on the saints that were already dead in a loud voice? That is a fable, a made up story. You are reading into Scripture things that are not there.
Nowhere does it say that we can communicate with those that are physically alive through Christ. Nowhere does it say that there are any that are physically alive with Christ. You do err not knowing the Scriptures.

Man is made lower than the angels. We also don't know the "how" they know.

The only thing that is clear here is that you don't have a clue what this passage means. Furthermore you have just demonstrated your ignorance to every Bible-believing Christian that reads this board. They are now laughing at you. I pity you. To be fair, it is a prophetic passage. I leave it to you to find out what it means.

No, it isn't. Most of us know what it means. But those who lack knowledge in the word of God don't and they make a fool of themselves when they post on the board.

Have you ever counted how many survivors are in the closest cemetery to your house?

Have what? A heavenly scene; quite symbolic of angels, "beasts," elders, and others that are representative of those on earth. And what do they hold? Bowls! Bowls, I repeat again. Bowls!!!!! Don't get away from that fact.

 

Not only that, but according to his religion's own teachings, he has no way of knowing who is and isn't in Heaven.

Well, they believe in grace, but you have to work for the opportunity to receive grace and that grace can be taken away from you at any time.

This is one of the things I've often thought was odd about Catholicism. A person dies and Jesus' blood was insufficient to cleanse every sin, so they go to Purgatory. Now, Catholicism teaches that they're there to expiate their own sins but the problem is that living Catholics can pray a dead Catholic out of Purgatory. I get it. It's an extension of the old indulgence nonsense. But why don't they ever bother to ask whether or not the person has expiated all of their sins yet? What if they pray them out of Purgatory but they still have sin? By Catholic logic, God would have no choice but to send the person to Hell. Catholics are literally praying people out of Purgatory and into Hell.

His answer is Rev 8:5, but that verse says nothing about them hearing our prayers and certainly nothing about us praying to them.

You can persue this if you want to but if you do, go and get the Tylenol now.

 

Scripture and the Master never contradict each other.

 

Nobodys arguing that, so as per the Masters testimony then.

 

Not so in the beginning at least: to the Early Church Fathers, Tradition explained and correctly interpreted Scripture. We could do with some of their wisdom today, to counteract the plethora of contradictory interpretations we see today, even on this thread, under the guise of so-called 'soul liberty'.

 

JDF has form for this kind of ad hominem nonsense.

 

I'm sorry that you feel following Biblical instruction not to argue with fools (the Bible's word for them, by the way, not mine) is "ad hominem nonsense" but I guess that would explain a lot.

This is Laodic...er, I mean BaptistBoard, after all.

 

In what way is calling someone a liar not ad hominem?

 

OK…

Matt 27:50-53 – “Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

At the moment Jesus breathed His last. That much is clear.

It doesn’t say that “..Jesus called on the saints that were already dead with a loud voice…”. That is what you are saying.

What it does say is that “…Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last.” Then the passage gives us a sequence of events connected to his death. Here’s how it reads.

At that moment [the moment of His death] the:
1) Temple was torn in two from top to bottom
2) Earth shook
3) Rocks were split
4) Tombs were opened and many bodies who had fallen asleep [died] were raised

Next:

After His resurrection [Jesus] they [those who were raised] came out of the tombs…

I think the scripture is quite clear.

I didn’t say they were “physically” alive with Christ. I said that they were united with Christ in Heaven. That is not a physical existence, but a spiritual one.

And this is you basis for refutation – that “Man is made lower than the angels”? Man is made lower than the angles in his earthly existence. This is frivolous logic DHK. All that has to be shown as a commonality is the capacity to intercede. The saints in heaven do not need to have all of the characteristics of angels to do that.

Besides…

"Do you not know that the saints [i.e. Christians] will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!…Shun immorality" (1 Cor. 6:2-18).

Well then - let’s see what a few Greek scholars have to say about the passage…

Marvin Vincent
“[T]he idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principle idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he is addressing are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith…watched the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid” (Vincent, IV, 536).

A.T. Robertson
“’Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturum) … The metaphor refers to the great amphitheater with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2, 4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11” (Robertson , V, 432)

DHK, your theology won’t let you see what is right in front of you.

And hurling insults at others isn’t foolish behavior DHK? Nice.

The last time I checked, the spirits of the physically dead aren’t in the ground. The worm that never dies DHK.

Symbolic…representative of those on Earth? If that were the case, then some people on Earth (those whom you say are represented by angels, "beasts," elders) would be offering the prayers of others on Earth to God. Patently ridiculous!

Yes – bowls, bowls, bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Don’t get away from THAT fact.

In Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God.

Well I think that I do understand it. Yet, that’s not the only place in scripture depicting those who have passed on interceding for those on Earth.

Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Even in Abraham’s Bosom/Sheol the spirits of the dead could intercede for the living on Earth. How much more so can those saints in Heaven!

Perhaps…

I am impressed by your omniscience. “At whom do they now laugh Homunculus?”

WM

 

I would also like to see how the term 'Bible-believing Christian' is defined here; every Christian I have known believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God yet many would disagree with the likes of DHK. In what way then, is the 'Bible-believing' adjectival phrase relevant to the discussion? It sounds awfully similar to the phrase beloved of charismatic Christians: 'Spirit-filled Christian' (as if there are some Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit and some who are not!).