"Sacred Tradition" seems to be the justification for any Catholic teaching that can't be supported by scripture.
is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JesusFan, Apr 8, 2011.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Matt 5:22
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. -
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Just FYI...
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Note that latria is worship, while both dulia and hyperdulia are considered veneration. This is pure semantics on the part of the RCC. It doesn't change the fact that both are synonyms for worship as far as the Bible is considered.
The definition of veneration is worship, which comes from its origin as given above. The definition of worship is homage paid to a god. The words are the same in meaning. The artificial differences given by the RCC is a false dichotomy to give an excuse to the world that they can say that they are not committing idolatry, when in fact they do. Every time they "venerate" or worship Mary or any of the saints it is worship or idolatry. It is a transgression of the Ten commandments. The fine distinction made by the RCC is made only by them, not by others. We don't go by their definitions, but rather by Biblical definitions.
The word worship or worshipped is found over 170 times in the Bible.
The word venerate or veneration is not even found once.
The reason: Venerate is a Latin word. The NT was written in Greek. Venerate is a synonym for worship used in the Latin language.
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At a Catholic funeral I heard a priest trying to "pray a deceased person" into heaven. What a pitiful scene. She had already died, and as far as her life and beliefs were concerned was already in hell. The priest could not do anything about it. Her family went to the cemetery. Some prayed to her. They prayed to the dead. They prayed as those who have no hope. Some prayed: "I hope you are in heaven..." And some: "I know you are looking down from heaven...," but in reality they didn't have that assurance. They indeed prayed to the dead.
Why? Because a person separated from God is in an eternal state of eternal death. That is what death is: separation from God. And someday they will stand before God and meet their final sentence: The Second Death.
Yes, they pray to the dead.
As far as the living are concerned, the resurrection has not yet taken place.
--Get your facts straight.
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Read the account again. When did the dead rise again. Compare the different gospel accounts. What happened to them after they arose? Why is Jesus called the first-fruits of the resurrection? Where does it say that Jesus called on the saints that were already dead in a loud voice? That is a fable, a made up story. You are reading into Scripture things that are not there.
Nowhere does it say that we can communicate with those that are physically alive through Christ. Nowhere does it say that there are any that are physically alive with Christ. You do err not knowing the Scriptures.
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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JohnDeereFan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
This is Laodic...er, I mean BaptistBoard, after all. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In what way is calling someone a liar not ad hominem?
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Matt 27:50-53 – “Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.”
What it does say is that “…Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last.” Then the passage gives us a sequence of events connected to his death. Here’s how it reads.
At that moment [the moment of His death] the:
1) Temple was torn in two from top to bottom
2) Earth shook
3) Rocks were split
4) Tombs were opened and many bodies who had fallen asleep [died] were raised
Next:
After His resurrection [Jesus] they [those who were raised] came out of the tombs…
I think the scripture is quite clear.
Besides…
"Do you not know that the saints [i.e. Christians] will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!…Shun immorality" (1 Cor. 6:2-18).
DHK said: ↑Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”
Hmmm. I wonder who that “great cloud of witnesses” could be? Notice the word “cloud”… It’s the same cloud spoken of in the transfiguration where Jesus called Elijah and Moses back to Earth.Click to expand...Click to expand...
Marvin Vincent
“[T]he idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principle idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he is addressing are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith…watched the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid” (Vincent, IV, 536).
A.T. Robertson
“’Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturum) … The metaphor refers to the great amphitheater with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2, 4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11” (Robertson , V, 432)
DHK, your theology won’t let you see what is right in front of you.
DHK said: ↑But those who lack knowledge in the word of God don't and they make a fool of themselves when they post on the board.Click to expand...
DHK said: ↑Have you ever counted how many survivors are in the closest cemetery to your house?Click to expand...
DHK said: ↑I did already. If you take everything in context with Revelation 5:8, it should be abundantly clear. Here it is again:
Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people."
These are creatures (as are we, the Angels, and Saints) who – through the power of God – are holding bowls containing the prayers of God’s people. There you have it!Click to expand...Click to expand...
DHK said: ↑And what do they hold? Bowls! Bowls, I repeat again. Bowls!!!!! Don't get away from that fact.Click to expand...
In Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God.
DHK said: ↑Jeremiah 31:15-16 – “Thus says the Lord: A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more. Thus says the Lord: Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for there is a reward for your work, says the Lord: they shall come back from the land of the enemy; “
Rachel intercedes for her children (Israel). This is years after Rachel's death, and the text says her “voice was heard” and her prayers were answered. Pretty clear actually.Click to expand...Click to expand...
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Even in Abraham’s Bosom/Sheol the spirits of the dead could intercede for the living on Earth. How much more so can those saints in Heaven!
DHK said: ↑Furthermore you have just demonstrated your ignorance to every Bible-believing Christian that reads this board.Click to expand...
DHK said: ↑They are now laughing at you.Click to expand...
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I would also like to see how the term 'Bible-believing Christian' is defined here; every Christian I have known believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God yet many would disagree with the likes of DHK. In what way then, is the 'Bible-believing' adjectival phrase relevant to the discussion? It sounds awfully similar to the phrase beloved of charismatic Christians: 'Spirit-filled Christian' (as if there are some Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit and some who are not!).
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