1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 18, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    4,336
    Likes Received:
    392
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Salvation is conditional on it being recieved solely as a gift through faith, apart from any kind of works. Those who think to merit salvation by any means fail to have obtained it, Matthew 7:21-23. Not the prayer, not water baptism, not the confessions, not the keeping the Lord's supper, nor kind of works to think to keep it.
     
    #41 37818, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    4,950
    Likes Received:
    543
    Faith:
    Baptist
    = gospel becomes law and grace becomes works and you become the savior.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,027
    Likes Received:
    328
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Since you know the answers to your questions, why ask them?

    Tit 3:9 KJV - But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,909
    Likes Received:
    161
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually it is the Calvinist who believe they have to work to keep there Salvation. It's called perseverance of the saints. Of course you'll deny it but your tulip states it is so.
    MB
     
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    4,950
    Likes Received:
    543
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I revised that point and point 4. If a cat can become a dog, the born again can become sinners.

    “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)
     
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,909
    Likes Received:
    161
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So are you saying you do not sin?
    MB
     
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    4,950
    Likes Received:
    543
    Faith:
    Baptist

    “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.” 1 John 1:8–10 (NASB95)

    But John also says; “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;” 1 John 2:1 (NASB95)

    Notice he says IF we sin, not When we sin.

    Here's how it works. Paul tells us we should be;

    “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:5) (KJV 1900)

    We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.

    And we replace it with:

    “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

    Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. So Jesus is lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.
     
    • Useful Useful x 2
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Seeking Christ
    Hello Van nice to mee you, though sadly making your words bigger does not make them true. Did you read the scriptures in the OP? If so what do you think they mean? Even the Hebrew and Greek word meanings show conditional particle meanings as does scripture context in the very two posts of this thread.

    2 THESSALONIANS 2:13 says "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

    Who are the scriptures speaking to that God has chosen from the beginning; Believers or Unbelievers? These scriptures do not say that that we do not have choose to believe or not believe God's Word. The context of this scriptures is to BELIEVERS not to be deceived. It is a closing statement of a WARNING given to believers not to depart the faith and turn away from God's Word. Here brother let's add the context back in....

    2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-13
    [1], Now we beseech you, BROTHERS (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him,
    [2], THAT YOU BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND OR BE TROUBLED, NEITHER BY SPIRIT OF BY WORDNOR BY LETTER AS FROM US AS THE DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND.

    Note the context here is to fellow believers (brothers) with a WARNING given not to be DECEIVED, SHAKEN IN MIND (depart the faith) because they day of the Lord is at hand. This is the context of the topic of discussion. Paul continues...

    [3], LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY (2nd coming) SHALL NOT COME EXCEPT THERE BE A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

    Note before the 2nd coming of the Lord there WILL BE a FALLING AWAY before the antichrist is revealed...

    [4], Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
    [5], Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    [6], And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
    [7], For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    [8], And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    [9], Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    [10], And with all delusion of unrighteousness IIN THEM THAT PERISH; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

    Note: the FALLING AWAY described in v3 is because those who fell away from God's Word (brothers fellow believers) were SHAKEN IN MIND v2 and were DECEIVED v3 because they received not the love of the truth v10.

    [11], And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Note: because these believers had the truth but did not love of the truth (put it before everything in their life) v11, they were shaken in mind v2, became deceived v3, had fallen away from believing and following God's Word v3 and for this cause God let them follow strong delusions to believe a lie v11 because they did not love the truth more than the things of the world v10.

    [12], That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Note: the end result of all those who once believed but did not love the truth of God's Word more than the things of the world and choose to turn away from believing the truth of God's Word? They are to be damned, they lose their salvation because they were not born again to love and had pleasure in sin (unrighteousness) *1 JOHN 5:17.

    [13], But WE are bound to give thanks always to God FOR YOU BROTHERS beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

    Note: part of the closing statement here who is the being spoken to; Believers or Unbelievers? "FOR YOU BROTHERS" is in reference to those who are BELIEVERS those who did not receive the love of the truth v10 had FALLEN AWAY from the faith v3 because they were SHAKEN IN MIND v2 and DECEIVED v10 because they had pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS v12 and did not love the truth v10 God sent them strong delusions that they might be damned v12

    God being all seeing and knowing the end from the beginning who will choose to be saved or not saved does not mean that salvation is not conditional on believing and following God's Word as revealed in the scriptures in this OP and all throurgh the OLD and NEW Testament.

    We are only set apart as we believe and follow God's Word through faith. It we choose to no longer believe and follow God's Word through faith then we greive God's Spirit and he will depart from us and leave us to FALL AWAY to follow strong delusions. Context matters.

    Hope this helps

    God bless
     
    #48 3rdAngel, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    4,336
    Likes Received:
    392
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Corrections to what Dave wrote by me. [Otherwise did not make sinse, The condition to receive salvation is solely as a gift, which is not by law and not by works.]
     
    #49 37818, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Seeking Christ
    Your reponse...
    Indeed this agrees also with 1 JOHN 3:6 ; JOHN 14:11-20; 2 CORINTHIANS 6:16; 1 CORINTHIANS 6:19 that we are God’s temple or the templs of the Word of God. It is only as we abide in Christ (the Word) through faith that we can follow JESUS and walk on water.


    What you have provided here however only support what is being shared through the scriptures in the OP that salvation is conditional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word because FOLLWING God's Word through faith is what it means to abide in Christ the living Word. Let's take a look at the reason why here...

    1 JOHN 3:6-9
    [6], Whoever ABIDES IN HIM (the Word) SINS NOT: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

    Note ther reason why someone does not practice sin is because they abide in him. I have put the Word here as JESUS is the living Word of God *JOHN 1:1-4; 14


    [7], Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: HE THAT DOES RIGHTOEUSNESS, IS RIGHTEOUS.

    Make no mistake, once again you are God's children in the fruit you show do not be deceived it is only those who do rightouesness that are rightesous because those who abide in Him (the Word) practice rightouesness and are obedient to God's Word.

    [8], HE THAT COMMITS (practices) SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Note sin comes from the devil and those who practice sin are not abiding in Christ (the Word) and are the children of the devil

    [9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Note: if we are born of God we do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments and not believing God's and following God's Word *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 14:23. Now note the reason why he connot sin?

    It says "BECAUSE HIS SEED REMAINS IN HIM"

    Now the wait for it...

    What is the SEED that remains in him?

    LUKE 8:11 And this is the parable THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD.

    We are God's temple we abide in him and he in us as His WORD abides in US as we love and BELIEVE it God's Spirit works in us to will and to do of God's own good pleasure *PHILIPPIANS 2:13

    Hope this helps

    God bless
     
    #50 3rdAngel, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,909
    Likes Received:
    161
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This I do not disagree with. The Lord directs my path and my ways.Since I was saved I have been disciplined by Him on occasion. There by I know I'm His child. He loves me and I love Him which is why I changed a few thins in my life.
    MB
     
  12. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,858
    Likes Received:
    628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Apologies for stepping in as I had no intention of interacting in this thread, but I thought it best to clear up a misunderstanding that I've heard time and again about "Calvinism" and the "TULIP"...which was developed in response to the Five Articles of the Remonstants of 1610, during the Synod of Dordrecht 1618-1619.

    @1689Dave :
    Do you see anything here that indicates that "Calvinists" have to work for their salvation?

    " All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end."
    Source: Calvinism and Arminianism comparison

    " Calvinism: Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began."
    Source: Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?



    I don't.
    This is why I always do a double take when I see someone make the charge that the "Perseverance of the Saints" means that God's children have to work to keep their salvation by persevering in the faith. :Cautious
     
    #52 Dave Gilbert, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Seeking Christ
    Hi Dave, where do the scriptures teach those who once believed in God cannot fall away into not believing and following God? Also, if one cannot fall away from the faith to become unbelievers to return back to a life of known unrepentant sin, why is the so many warnings all through the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures not to do so? Only God's Word is true trusting the teachings of men over the Word of God can lead us away from God *ROMANS 3:4; MATTHEW 15:3-9. JESUS says all those who follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God. I know who I believe and follow how about you *ACTS 5:29

    God bless
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Seeking Christ
    This is a discussion board. You do not have to discuss the topic here if you do not want to. You are free to do as you wish.

    The scripture you have provided in your post is not relavent to the topic we are discussing here.

    TITUS 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

    NOTE: In Titus 3:9 the GREEK word for the law used here is νομικός ; nomikos which means ceremonial laws. So the scripture says to avoid foolish questions in relation to tracing generations [Geneologies] and havnig contentions about the ceremonial laws that are unprofitable.

    It is not saying you should not discuss the conditions set forth in the scriptures on salvation and the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Chrsit. The issue of the time was the ceremonial shadow laws fulfilled in Christ from the Mosaic book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7, not God's eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 6:20; ROMANS 7:7.

    Hope this helps.
     
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,909
    Likes Received:
    161
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To persevere Means to strive to keep a stand. to fight to keep a position.. It's a work no matter how you look at it. Work is not something that is done for you. We are sealed by the holy Spirit. Salvation is a done deal no work involved.


    This is what John macArthur teaches in his Lordship teaching.
    MB
     
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Seeking Christ
    Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word and is why we are warned not to turn back to a life of sin..

    HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For IF WE (BELIEVERS) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
    2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
    3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    14,798
    Likes Received:
    333
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi, I am not sure of your view, so I will state my understanding of it.
    1) Salvation is not (in my view) conditional on choosing to believe or on sustaining salvation by following His word. Your answer to the OP title question is yes. So we differ.

    2) Rather than conditional on us choosing to believe, salvation is conditional on God crediting our faith as righteousness. Just because a person believes does not result in salvation. Recall the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

    3) Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is addressed to believers. But according to our verse, they are "chosen" believers, not just professing believers.

    4) Since Jesus departed, 2000 years ago, we did not come to know and trust in Him face to face, but through God's word, we believed His gospel, referred to as believing in His "name." But to be crystal, we believe specifically in what we learned about Him, not say information in the book of Numbers.

    5) You believe a born anew believer can lose faith, whereas I believe God keeps us for our salvation by protecting our faith, 1 Peter 1:3-5. OSAS
     
    #57 Van, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    14,798
    Likes Received:
    333
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I did not see where you addressed believing in Him versus believing into Him. The first view is based on our action, the second view is based on God's action.
     
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Seeking Christ
    Hello Van, nice to see you again. Some comments provided below for your consideration.
    You can read my view in the first through posts on this thread that show just some of the many scriptures that show that salvation is condtional on believing and following God's Word (always in the "present tense"; moment by moment) starting here
    Then prove your claims from the scriptures? Only God's Word brother is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29. As shown in the scriptures in the first three posts of the OP according to God's Word salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word (always in the "present tense"; moment by moment) starting here
    Who says salvation is conditional on us? Not me. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. Saving faith believes and follows God's Word from the heart (good soil; MATTHEW 13:23), however the same parable also teaches we can believe Gods' Word and for a time have salvation only latter to leave it in MATTHEW 13:20-21. Saving faith however believes and follows God's Word and endures temptation to the very end *JAMES 1:12; JAMES 2:18-20; 26; JOHN 10:1-10; 26-28; MATTHEW 24:12-13
    Context is provided from 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-13 verse by verse showing that these scriptures are addressed to believers not unbelievers here in post # 48 click me. You have chosen to ignore it. They are God's Word not mine. Context matters.
    God's Word says that ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God an is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and ALL THESE THINGS are written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11. JESUS says we are to live by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD *MATTHEW 4:4. Life only comes by faith in God's WORD and even our faith comes through the Word *ROMANS 10:17. It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life *JOHN 6:63. If we reject God's Word we reject JESUS who is the living Word *JOHN 1:1-4; 14. It is our faith in Gods' Word that gives us the victory to overcome the World *1 JOHN 5:4. If we do not continue believing and following God's Word we have no salvation *JOHN 8:31-32. Salvation is from sin not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-36. If we continue in sin we will die *ROMANS 8:13 because those who do so reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.
    God's Word teaches a born again believer can fall away from the faith and grieve God's Spirit *EPHESIANS 4:30; 1 THESSALONIANS 5:19 not me. These are God's Word not mine *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:31-36; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-13. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. This teaching is not biblical and has its foundation in the first lie spoken to Eve in the garden of Eden which caused the fall of mankind and continues to do so today *GENESIS 3:1-5. This teaching brother (OSAS) is not biblical as shown in the scriptures of the OP and all through the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures. Salvation is alwats conditional on believing and following God's Word (always in the present tense). If we believed and followed God's Word yestersday and do not continue to believe and follow God's Word today than we are not longer believing and following God's Word and have fallen away from the faith *JOHN 8:31-36; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-13; HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27

    I hope you can receive this in the spirit that it was given (love) which is only sent as a guide and a help for correction and instruction in the scriptures brother to help you have a closer walk with Jesus.

    God bless.
     
    #59 3rdAngel, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2019
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    7
    Faith:
    Seeking Christ
    Try reading the post you are responding to. What do you think it is saying? This whole post is agreeing with what it means to believe into him (the Word) Click me here
     
    #60 3rdAngel, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...