Featured Israel as a Nation and God's Plan

Replies in red.

@Smiley post: 2304931, I joined this discussion board to answer this poll....then found that that the thread is only open to Baptists. I hope that baptist brethren view themselves as part of a larger Body of Christ, and would be open to hearing the thoughts of brethren outside of denominational boundaries.

Regarding this topic, for those who read the Bible and accept what it says as true, I'm not sure why it would be controversial (and therefore limited only to baptists) or even debatable since most of what the Bible says on the topic is quite literal.

So please consider me a brother who seeks dialogue with brethren. I admit to being a bit shocked that bible-believing baptists don't know with absolute certainty that the Jewish people are being regathered to Israel in fulfillment of prophecy like never before in history. More Jewish people have come to faith since 1967 (when Jerusalem was recaptured and under Jewish control for the first time since 150 BC) than in the 2 millennia since Jesus. How can this be a mere coincidence?

I won't argue with your assertion, but there is serious doubt as to whether today's Jews, mainly from Eastern Europe, are Semitic, or descended from Abraham. And the extant to which they are conscientiously practising Biblical Judaism. The persecution of the Jews, particularly by Hitler & Co, has contributed to a guilty conscious of the Western nations, & massive support for the return of them to the Biblical homeland they lost following the rejection of the Messiah.

I suggest a reason for the "coincidence" is that there has been an (over) emphasis on OT prophecy & a claimed "literal interpretation" by the fundamentalist churches using the Scofield Bible. Israel is seen to be the focus of supposedly unfulfilled OT prophecy, rather than Christ & the Church, comprising Jew & Gentile as ONE people of God.

There is, however, no prophecy in the Gospels, Acts or Epistles, or Revelation, of a re-establishment of Israel as a nation nor of any focus on on physical Jerusalem & the land in God's purposes. We look for a New Heaven & New Earth.

It is recorded in Acts 2 that many thousands of Jews, devout men, & proselytes, came to repentance & faith in the Lord Jesus Christ from out of every nation under heaven. That large scale conversion continued, & included priests (Acts 6:7) and Pharisees. (Acts 15:5) Their welcome into Christ on repentance is asserted by Paul in Romans 11.

Both the Gospel & these Christian Jews were rejected by the national leaders with repeated persecutions. It seems they were not allowed by the Holy Spirit to maintain a "Messianic Jews" status but became one body, Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God. Thus the church from the outset comprised a vast majority of Jews, but that majority diminished as Gentiles were saved. Also distinctive "Jewishness" in practice ceased as the Mosaic rituals were seen to be obsolete once Christ has in person fulfilled every aspect of the Law.

The state of Israel has NO prophetic significance.

THE POLL

Seeing as the subject of modern day Israel comes up fairly often, I would like to do an 8 question straw poll on your thoughts, if you would like to join in please do!

1, Do you believe that God is currently regathering the nation of Israel from the various other nations of the world?

NO

2, Will Jesus Christ return to the current geographical location that is modern day Jerusalem?

NO - He will come to establish the NH&NE

3, Do you believe that events that happen in Modern Day Israel are evidence of the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy?

NO

4, Does the Temple have to be rebuilt before the return of Jesus Christ can take place?

Certainly NOT - it would be an act of blasphemy.


5, Will the current nation of Israel ever be expanded to its historical borders, encompassing Lebanon, Jordan and other areas?

With US help maybe - but NO prophetic significance.

6, If you traveled to Jerusalem as a tourist, would you place a prayer on paper into the wailing wall?

I have decline all such opportunities, & would discourage such activity.



7, Would traveling to Israel on vacation be something that you would consider to be a spiritual experience?

I would be interested in seeing Biblical locations - could be spiritual experience.

8, Are Palestinian Christians being treated fairly or unfairly in the occupied territories by the Israeli authorities?

"Fair" is a relative term. The answer is "yes, but some arab christians suffer the security hassles necessary to prevent what other arabs would do if those measures were not in place".

Not much different than the way I'm treated when going through an airport became someone somewhere might do something bad.

Arab Christians are horribly mistreated by Palestinian muslims in Israel. Without the nation of Israel guaranteeing their safety, there would be no Arab Christians still alive. For this reason, there is major movement in the city of Nazareth for arab christians to volunteer for the IDF (Israel Army)

All the indications from Christian sources are that Israel oppresses ALL Palestinians, Christian, Muslim & Semitic Jew. There was a sizable Arab Christian population before 1947 which has been massively reduced.

 

No to #6? Reason(s)?

 

My first and main question is; how many of those people in Israel are really semitic? We're talking centuries of living in Europe. I doubt they stayed married within their own. I'd dare to say that the majority non-arabic people living in Isreal are more slavic or germanic than they are jewish.

 

Human genome research reveals a very close link between Jews and Palestinians. Remember the book series "Left Behind"? Well, It seems the Palestinians were the REAL 'left behind' folks:

38 For as in those days which were before the flood they we e eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left. Mt 24

34 I say unto you, In that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 There shall be two women grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
36 There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Lu 17

Palestinians, Jews share common genetic lineage
"...“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots,” as Ostrer and Skorecki wrote in a review of their findings that they co-authored in the journal Human Genetics in October 2012...."

Do the Palestinians have Jewish Roots?
"...not only do many Jews and Palestinians share remarkably similar DNA, there are also numerous customs and even names that overlap..."

"...Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli businessman who writes and speaks extensively about the connection between the Palestinians and the Jews. He claims that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from Jews who remained in Israel after the destruction of Second Temple 2,000 years ago, but were forced to convert to Islam.

According to Misinai, the Hebrew ancestors of the Palestinians were rural mountain dwellers who were allowed to remain in the land in order to supply Rome with grain and olive oil.

While Misinai is an advocate of this theory, he’s not the only scholar or even political figure to claim a Jewish connection for the Palestinians. The first president of Israel, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi as well as former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, wrote several books and articles on the subject.

Ben-Tzvi suggested that Jews who remained in the Land of Israel “loved the land so much that they were willing to give up their religion.” The reference is to an edict in the year 1012 by Caliph el-Hakim who ordered non-Muslims to either convert or leave. The decree was revoked just 32 years later, but it was too late for most of the converts. Only 27 percent returned to Judaism openly and even they remained Musta’arabi (culturally and linguistically Arab)....."

 

True Israel has always been "spiritual Israel", that is, the body of people who pursue the one true God. Being born an Israelite is not the ticket to Heaven in itself. Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again. That meant that his natural birth as a Jew was insufficient. Hence, John 3.16. To reject Jesus is to reject the one true God. So to theorize that the modern creation of Israel is the same as 8th century b.c. Israel is just not compatible with all of scripture.

Modern day Israel is a creation of a homeland for Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. God destroyed the harlot, unbelieving Israel, in 70 a.d. No more temple, no more sacrifices, and no more priesthood has existed for 20 centuries. God destroyed the harlot in Revelation in the first century. That harlot was unfaithful Israel. That fact astonished John. Part of the Palestinian issue today is that the Palestinians have more Semitic blood than these European Jews who occupy and are citizens of modern "Israel". DNA shows that modern day Israeli Jews have little or no Middle Eastern blood. This is why Moslems are so outraged at the creation of a "false Israel" protected by Europe and America in 1948.

Secondly, the U.S. promised a secure Palestinian state during WW1 in exchange for oil. The USA not only failed to live up to its promise, but we supported the creation of a new (false) Israel instead. This plan to link the Christian Church to Israel started in the 19th century with the creation of the Scofield Bible. Jewish publishers hired a lawyer, Scofield, to draft a study bible to re-tool Christian thinking. The underlying message was that we have 2 ways to heaven.....one through Christ and then one still thru Judaism. Hence, the deception was largely successful. Pre-Trib, Pre-millenial is a popular belief today due to this deception.

Modern day Israel is simply a democratically created nation for the Ashkenazi Jews who have little or no semitic blood. The hostility against this Israel from Libya to Iran is understandable when we learn the facts.

 

I've always believed that if you mess with God's best (Israel), then you die like the rest.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

We believe God is sovereign but man manipulated this one...Got it

Deuteronomy 32:8
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.

Acts 17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Job 12:23
He makes the nations great, then destroys them; He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.

Psalm 74:17
You have established all the boundaries of the earth; You have made summer and winter.

 

Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews both run about 70% Semitic, with mostly European DNA making up the remainder.

Studies Show Jews’ Genetic Similarity

 

"Smiley, post: 2305152,
Shalom Covenentor,

I must admit that I'm surprised that a Baptist would have those views. I've heard those views from denominations who don't teach the whole bible, and assumed it was just illiteracy, but Baptists tend towards reading the scriptures literally so I sincerely don't understand how you could come to those conclusions. I'm not trying to start an argument, nor insult your intellect, but I hope you'd let me probe how you came to that?

I come to my understanding by reading the NC Scriptures as recording the fulfilment of the OC Scriptures. Thus the OC Scriptures present Christ, the seed of the woman; the seed of Abram/Abraham; the Messiah; the son of David; the Great High Priest; the Antetype of all the OC types & shadows, etc.

I see the covenant people of God being the redeemed - all the redeemed, who are counted as "my people" who recognise "the LORD is my God." The various covenants of the OC are types of the everlasting covenant in the blood of Jesus.

You seem to hold preterist views so let me start by asking if you think there anything in the prophets yet to be fulfilled on the earth?

The NC Scriptures, NC prophecy completely override OC prophecy.

Only the perfection of the resurrection to the new heaven & new earth. All of the specific prophecies concerning Israel are fulfilled by Christ in his incarnation, life, saving work, & present reign. The church, comprising saved Jews & Gentiles, inherits all the promises concerning Israel. Israel has no separate prophetic future. The Jews who rejected their Messiah & his Gospel, & refused to repent, died in their sin, or perished in AD 70.

Continuing Jews have no separate prophetic future. They have no privileges over any other nation or people group. God commands all men everywhere to repent.

If so, since many things spoken by the Prophets were "yet future" concerning the people of Israel (as a nation wherever they are) what do you do with those events which have never happened? There are SO many passages I could throw out as examples, but let's start with just one. What do you do with the Book of Zechariah chapters 12 through 14? Since it has never happened before, do you think that it will?

I started a thread on Zechariah beginning from the beginning. Feel free to contribute there.
Zechariah - Christ centred prophecy

If not, then the logic would say that God must be wrong, or at least made a mistake, wouldn't it? Surely you don't believe that, right?

Impossible. Some prophecies were fulfilled by the exile & return & rebuilding of the city & temple - a pattern for the restoration & rebuilding by Christ in the church, with the redeemed people of God as living stones.

And one of the most striking prophecies, Daniel 9:24 ff does see the end of Israel as a nation as prophesied by Jesus in Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21.
----

 

If it wasn't so wrong it'd be a laugh, the way you worship that Golden Calf.

 

Wow.

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 2

 

Wrong. There is Israel, and then there is Israel:

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

You don't know very much about the New Testament do you? Probably much more familiar with the Torah, right?