Jerry Walls wicked and profane question about God..part2

In the derailed thread Benjamin raised these questions and concerns;

First off....he continues with language that distorts the biblical message..."doctrines of determinism"...God has decreed destined,and purposed whatsoever comes to pass...this language in the confession answers that quite well;
http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc03.html

The passing over of the nonelect is spoken of theologically as "preterism"...spoken of briefly here;
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

They are left....to act in sin....now Benjamin...you can try and interject some more philosophy, and speak of contra casual this and that....however notice the writers here just simply in one sentence speak truth....the sinner is left to act IN THEIR SIN....no mention of being predestined to sin...they are LEFT TO ACT....they never in and of themselves choose God as you and others posit.
.

Instead of trying to blame our Sovereign Lord for mans rebellion and sin....why not adopt the language of eph 2.....again...notice... no man made ideas....but rather Divine truth once again, explaining what is wrong with all mankind apart from God's mercy...

who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,

according to the prince of the power of the air,

the spirit that now worketh

in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,

fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;

and were by nature the children of wrath,

even as others.

AS if that were not enough , we get more of the picture here;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,

and strangers from the covenants of promise,

having no hope,

and without God in the world:

[QUOTE]and those Doctrines be seen to have the least amount of credible truth by anyone else with a sufficient amount of marbles in their head?[/QUOTE]

I do not know about marbles, or bricks or any such thing, but truth revealed shows our need for mercy.

you know the answer to that, but now...do not tell God what he must do to meet your view of what that is. God as creator tells us what truth is...not you , or Jerry Walls telling God who He needs to save.

No...He never intended to....This is a false fantasy of unsaved persons....God is not obligated to save anyone except the objects of His Love and Mercy.....That He saves a multitude is astounding.

 

Benjamin asked:

The free offer of the Gospel is offered to all who hear the gospel preached.

Not all men hear the gospel at anytime in History...
Men have turned from truth...God gave them over to a reprobate mind...

Men were scattered the language confounded...none of those facts promote all men from hearing any good news.

"all His created beings"have not heard the gospel....there are multitudes dying this week who have never heard about Jesus.

 

Jonathan Edwards....The great work of God in the history of redemption;

There was mercy in the forbearance of God, that he did not destroy him, as he did the angels when they fell. But there is no mercy exercised toward fallen man but through a mediator.

If God had not in mercy restrained Satan, he would immediately have seized on his prey. Christ began to do the part of an intercessor for man as soon as he fell; for there is no mercy exercised towards man but what is obtained through Christ’s intercession

By means of this flood, all the enemies of God’s church, against whom that little handful had no strength, were swept off at once. God took their part, appeared for them against their enemies, and drowned those of whom they had been afraid, in the flood of water, as he drowned the enemies of Israel that pursued them in the Red sea.

Indeed God could have taken other methods to deliver his church: he could have converted all the world instead of drowning it; and so he could have taken another method than drowning the Egyptians in the Red sea. But that is no argument, that the method he did take, was not a method to show his redeeming mercy to them.

 

ibid;
By the deluge the enemies of God’s people were dispossessed of the earth, and the whole earth was given to Noah and his family to possess it in quiet; as God made room for the Israelites in Canaan, by casting out their enemies from before them. And God thus taking the possession of the enemies of the church, and giving it all to his church, was agreeable to that promise of the covenant of grace: Ps. xxxvii. 9-11. “For evil-doers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

V. God’s disappointing the design of building the city and tower of Babel belongs to the great work of redemption. For that was undertaken in opposition of this great building of God of which we are speaking. Men’s going about to build such a city and tower was an effect of the corruption into which mankind were now fallen. This city and tower was set up in opposition to the city of God, as the god to whom they built it, was their pride. Being sunk into a disposition to forsake the true God, the first idol they set up in his room, was their own fame. And as this city and tower had their foundation laid in the pride and vanity of men, and the haughtiness of their minds, so it was built on a foundation exceedingly contrary to the nature of the kingdom of Christ, and his redeemed city, which has its foundation laid in humility.

Therefore God saw that it tended to frustrate the design of that great building which was founded in Christ’s humiliation: and therefore the thing displeased the Lord, and he baffled and confounded the design. God will frustrate and confound all other designs, that are set up in opposition to the great work of redemption.

 

I hope to remain on point here. I am sorry I got swept away in the derailing of your other thread, Brother.

We both agree that the gospel saves sinner. It is how we view the gospel working in the bringing to spiritual life those dead in their sins.

We, the Calvinists/Particular Redemptionists see the gospel working in this way. God sends someone to witness to a lost person. As they are being witnessed to by the gospel, God sends His Spirit to that lost person, and opens their eyes, ears, heart, IOW, quickens them to life by the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit. It is when this person is quickened, they exercise faith and repentance and are saved. All this happens at the same exact time. No one is saved, and then later regenerated, neither is anyone regenerated and then later saved. They happen simultaneously. Now, if God did this to everyone, then everyone would be saved. I see the raising of Lazarus in John 11 and those risen again bones in Ezekiel 37 as prime examples of how God brings to life the spiritually dead.

The other side of this debate believes God sends someone to witness to a lost person. It is only after they have faith God sends the Holy Spirit to bring them to spiritual life. They have the cause after the effect. Faith is proof of a salvation that has already taken place. For their scenario to work, the Christ would have called Lazarus out of the tomb, and when He saw him coming out, He then gave him life. So they have dead sinners doing spiritually alive works BEFORE they are quickened.

That's backwards theology.

 

I know you miss me, Icon, but you can’t be trying to draw me into these big discussions, …man! Nah, really, I don’t have the time or the patience to put up for what goes on around here. Now, sometimes my wife will tell me, “Why don’t you go bug someone on the Baptist Board?” and then I do, but that’s about the extent of it. :)

You’re all over the place here and should know by now that I don’t like chasing your rabbits into hole after hole and dealing with smokescreens.

To break some of this down, on the other tread I watched the video, although while multitasking, and heard Jerry Wall speak of God’s children and go off on God’s love for His children in reference to salvation. I did think this could of used some clarification. I’ve already stated I avoid using the term “God’s children”, at least on this premise, and typically refer to “God’s creatures” to avoid “semantic ambiguity distractions” (smokescreens) and also to distinguish between those creatures who are His children and those creatures who haven’t answered His call yet.

As far as God’s love goes for ALL His creatures I would agree with Wall that God’s love applies, but this doesn’t guarantee all will be saved and I think that point needs to be made clear.

But the next point I made to another poster, which was supposed to take his thinking to another level by adding a couple issues, although I knew that was a little much to ask, is does the Good News, God’s offer of salvation by grace through faith, apply to all His creatures?

Apparently, one of your arguments for the offer not being genuine to all God’s creatures is that they don’t receive it. It seems to me you have just given many an excuse for not accepting Christ, but the scripture says that is a lie, there is no such excuse:

Rom 1:17-20

(17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

(19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Note in the above scripture God’s judgment in the matter brings wrath upon those who do not love the truth which they have seen. That brings us to next point, which you seem to deny since you believe the excuse that these creatures have not heard or seen God’s manifestation, and that is that all God’s ways are judgment and His justice is unquestionably done in truth.

Deu 32:4

(4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

But, I think the bigger question which I believe you Calvinists/Determinists/Reformed, whatever flavor of the week you want to call yourselves, is about God’s love for all His creatures being a message of light to all which you guys go to great lengths to discount.

Joh 1:9-12

(9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

(11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Example, (KJV)
Joh 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
...
in another tread you said non-Cals were surprise to “learn” that the term “whosoever” is not in John 3:16, that it is improperly translated from the Greek. Now, I quoted you every well-known commonly used English Bible translation I could think of and every one of those Bibles used that term. But your reply offered some weird sounding translation that apparently you got from James White teachings, I mean seriously! …maybe you need to take a closer at this verse rather than how to force fit your doctrine into distorting the Bible:

2Pe 1:20

(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Finally, you referred to my belief that the Gospel is genuinely offered to ALL God’s creatures as “a false fantasy of unsaved persons” added a strawman about God being obligated to save anyone, and of course expressed your favorite definition of “multitude” to mean only the predestined lucky few, yeah, all others need not apply, you seem to like to make that clear when it is convenient.

Example, remember this when we discussed how you turn the message of light into darkness?

Talk about not hearing the message, you better take this up with Jesus: (1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Because you’ve demonstrated your message seems to be rather selective upon your feelings whether it is Good News or Bad:

“If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......”
~ Iconoclast

Okay, I’ll let the “fantasy of unsaved persons” thing go and you can believe what you want to, but I will preach to all that God loves them and they have genuine hope if only they will love the truth and believe.

I’m done here, you have fun walking back those scriptures to suit your system and why you’re at it why don’t you tell the people here, Anthony, did you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the pre-selected few?


Peace Out

 

This was a new and great thing, that God did toward the work of redemption. It was about the middle of the space of time between the fall of man and the coming of Christ; about two thousand years before the great Redeemer was to appear. But by this calling of Abraham, the ancestor of Christ, a foundation was laid for upholding the church in the world, till Christ should come. For the world having become idolatrous, there was a necessity in order to this, that the seed of the woman should be thus separated from it.

And then it was needful that there should be a particular nation separated from the rest of the world, to receive the types and prophecies that were to be given of Christ, to prepare the way for his coming; that to them might be committed the oracles of God; that by them the history of God’s great works of creation and providence might be preserved; that Christ might be born of this nation; and that from hence the light of the gospel might shine forth to the rest of the world. These ends could not well be obtained, if God’s people, through all these two thousand years, had lived intermixed with the heathen world. So that the calling of Abraham may be looked upon as a kind of new foundation laid for the visible church of God, in a more distinct and regular state.
Abraham, being the person in whom this foundation is laid, is represented in Scripture as though he were the father of all the church, the father of all them that believe; a root whence the visible church rose as a tree, distinct from all other plants.
Of this tree Christ was the branch of righteousness; and from it, after Christ came, the natural branches were broken off, and the Gentiles were grafted in. So that Abraham still remains the father, the root of the church. It is the same tree which, from that small beginning in Abraham’s time, has in these days of the gospel spread its branches over a great part of the earth, and will fill the whole in due time, and at the end of the world shall be transplanted from an earthly soil into the paradise of God.

 

Benjamin,

[I know you miss me, Icon, but you can’t be trying to draw me into these big discussions, …man! Nah, really, I don’t have the time or the patience to put up for what goes on around here. Now, sometimes my wife will tell me, “Why don’t you go bug someone on the Baptist Board?” and then I do, but that’s about the extent of it. :)]

Yes Benjamin....from time to time I do miss you as I have not given up on you as many have...lol. when I read your occasional soliloquies, and carnal philosophical musings I can be thankful I am not encumbered with all of that...no....I am just a regular working person who depends on scripture and teachings of others who else delight in scripture.
Now.....your better half sounds as if she is looking out for you in suggesting you "go bug someone on Baptistboard"....
This suggests a few things to me...let me share them with you at this time...
1] because she loves you she is hoping that we on BB....can perform some kind of spiritual intervention and get you into the more complete flow of scripture and out of the mental prison house of as you say,critical thinking skills and logic which you mean by those ideas a fancy way of remaining in rebellion like those described in Psalm 2....heathen, raging against God and His truth....imaging vain things...debate fallacies hiding behind every shrub...
2] hopefully you are not inflicting these thoughts on her!...that could lead to her request....to go....go to BB...
3] looks like you cut and paste portions of our previous discussions as you meandered back to your deut32:4 verse as an attempted defence.
4] you even quoted part of my response to which I stand by all the parts of that post to this day....it is accurate.
5] maybe later I will correct those portions of scripture where I would have thought you would have the biblical solution in sight by now...
6] I know you are intelligent Benjamin, but that alone does not give spiritual understanding....some time it hinders it...
7] now I know the time has come for you to withdraw as all non calls do when you find no philosophical answer to scriptural truth....and in this case Jonathan Edwards scripturally based theological and even we could refer to scripture based philosophy of a Christian based worldview taken from the texts of scripture when read correctly.
8] I do give you credit once again that even though you and others are looking for an Arminian Goliath.....to send against the Calvinists .....you know that Walls is a major disappointment, flawed,defective...not quite up to it.
Even you cringe when you hear his inconsistency.
9] I do not hold you accountable for his error...that would be as unjust as holding Catholics responsible for the sodomite affirming pope.
We will communicate in the future....by the way....Dr.White while very busy would be more than able to address your concerns face to face in a short amount of time if you would be straight up and honest with him.
Present your honest and sincere concerns and he can go wherever you need him to go.....scripture, Greek text, even your cherished debate fallacy world.
Do not make excuses....put your knowledge to the test...you will find Dr.White easy to speak with.

 

All who go to heaven is due to the Pedetermined will ands purposes of God, and all who go to hell is due to THEM rejecting Jesus to save them from their sins!

 

No...it is for having no High Priest or sins paid for.

 

Here's another point missed. The OT high priest interceded for God's children, the OT Jews. There were a smattering of Gentiles hither and yon added as proselytes, but it was mainly of Jewish lineage. This high priest interceded solely for Israel, not their enemies such as the Egyptians, Philistines, Edomites, Assyrians, Jerichoites, &c. When the Levitical Scapegoat was used, Aaron placed all the sins and iniquities of Israel upon that goat and it was led into the wilderness, never to return. Those enemies of Israel, their sins were not placed upon that goat. So, we can see the OT high priest acted solely for God's ppl.

In the NT, Jesus is our High Priest, and He intercedes solely for God's chosen ppl, the ekklesia, which consists of both Jewish and Gentile lineage.

 

True, but its both, as Jesus did not intend to die for their sins, but they also will not choose to have Him save them at all!

 

What about the millions who never heard the gospel why do they go to hell

 

:) Alright, I had to hurry, but I couldn't resist to try to help you guys out here with one more post:

There is no privileged by pedigree or any other means that grace comes except through true faith.

Knowledge and understanding of Progressive Revelation demonstrates only One Gospel denoting the true means of salvation. It appears some of you are missing the point alright.

To make a statement/claim about “Israel” being saved by lineage while not understanding the Progressive Revelation of the covenant brings in the true contextual meaning of 1Cor 2, which the Calvinist love to abuse as one of one of their favorite proof-texts, but in fact is upon those who would try to make such claims of privileged pedigree. This subject is very good for utterly destroying the Calvinist view on election to mean the Pre-selected Few, thus their insistence on predetermination to count out the Unlucky Rest pertaining to the Gospel.

I think you would agree that all were saved by faith both in the NT and the OT. What makes the (only) difference is the ministry that is written in our hearts; God required essentially the same thing through faith: (Mic 6:8) He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

You want to talk about the “high priest interceded solely for Israel” even while admitting the adding in of proselytes, to support the Calvinist doctrines of predetermined election by pedigree.

“Israel” refers to the “faithful” and throughout history as the secular ethnic application is different than the redemptive context in scripture. The idea of the “Jew” in the NT and OT should be abandoned because it is only applicable to: “the southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin (with the Levites), it excludes all the prophets to the northern kingdom such as Samuel, Elijah, and so on.”

Israel refers to faithful believers only, Jew and Gentile alike in one body in Christ. (Gal 3:28-29) Further, how can all of Israel be saved? (Rom 11:26)

I contend Israel in this reference refers to an individual believer with faith, both NC and OC. In the sense of pedigreed the term has no relationship to the meaning of the “seed of Abraham”, Paul’s term for ALL the saved. A big problem for the foolishness that “Israel” singles out OT Jews for predetermined election!

John the Baptist rebuffed the Pharisees in this matter of pedigreed pre-selected favoritism as to who their father was:

(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

(Mat 3:10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Note John the Baptist’s reply to the Pharisees who thought differently: (Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. – POOF!! goes doctrines of predetermined election!

The promise is made to the faithful not some lucky pedigreed few. The Gospel is effective today to raise new “Seeds of Abraham”. Those who were tired but now saved entered into rest but as a new creature they are to do as Christ, they now are to work to continue in the work of the Gospel because this Word is powerful and THIS PROMISE is truly still effective today and POWERFUL:

Heb 4:12-16

(12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

(13) Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

(14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

(15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

(16) Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Without any doubt we are to help others find grace because the work of God creating still reigns as He Providentially dispenses the blessing of the promise in a way of unmerited favor by the power of the Gospel and those who will hear it, have faith and are sealed in the promise still having genuine hope, in Christ, during this continuing time of need.

Yep, sounds as instruction to preach the Good News today as still truly effective for all in creation lest one displays unbelief in the Truth of it. Find that grace given to us and give that message into all the world during this time of need.

To try to support the idea of limiting the effectiveness of the Gospel to “solely Israel” fails on every level!

Ever heard of corporate election “IN Christ”??? Do you realize that Paul mentions the phrases “In Him,” “In Christ,” “In the Beloved,” 11 times in the first 13 verses of Ephesians 1 denoting this predestination of election you speak of as being a corporate election “IN Christ”?

Which takes us to the Biblical order of salvation for "individuals" ("YOU" being at the scriptural forefront of necessarily having to make a volitional decision) :


The process is clear and to change the divinely given is false doctrine.

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


.

 

Oooooh.....ooooooh.....ooooh! Nachos?

Seriously, they go to hell because they’re unregenerate sinners.

 

God will make sure that those whom He chose to save by the Cross of Christ will get to hear the Gospel and respond to it...

 

But what about those dying w/o ever hearing the gospel?

 

Yes but the point of the question is this what about the ones who God Has Not Elected what will cause them to wind up in hell if they never heard the gospel to be able to reject it to begin with?

 

Wonder why he won’t answer?

 

Benjamin,

Thats the spirit...let's see what you have....I still am going back to your last post soon, I have some time for it ...

There is the grace gift of salvation that includes all the necessary parts, repentence , faith, grace, illumination, drawing, convicting , quickening..

The promise of the seed never went away...Gen3:15...we get that..

No...we are happy to know of it.What makes you think we miss the point of this?

Not sure what you mean here,,,could you clarify?

Not sure where you come up with this??? you sure can turn a phrase though...

is this the Preselected few"?;
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Can you number the dust my friend?

Do you mean the God hating sinners? Do you think "luck" has anything to do with it?

Yes...we agree on this

What makes the (only) difference is the ministry that is written in our hearts; God required essentially the same thing through faith: (Mic 6:8) He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?