Why waste my time? You’re set in your beliefs, so am I.
Jerry Walls wicked and profane question about God..part2
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, May 22, 2018.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Pass.
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Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Saved-By-Grace,
No one asked for your opinion of the" reformed group" did they?
Who appointed you spokesman for those who would be able to offer any critique? YOU WERE ASKED TO GIVE A RESPONSE TO 4 PORTIONS OF SCRIPTURE... which you failed to do because you cannot answer any of them without being exposed as void of understanding , and yet you go on and on.....
As if you are not trying to escape directly answering those portions of scripture you were asked to explain....you then chide SG for not answering when he observes you back out like a coward...:oops:
Of course the lame cop out......good old jn 3:16.....topped with cherry picked quotes from calvin....you were not asked about Jn 3;16, or calvin...
that is why they make jokes for such clown posts as you offer;
:Roflmao -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have changed my mind. I have some time so I will respond to this post of yours.
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Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
You speak of the "context" and use of the Greek noun, "κόσμος", when used in John 3:16, "when God so loved the κόσμος". You turn to some passages when it is used in a limited sense, and then try to force this use here in John 3:16. Did you know that the Greek "θεός ", is used for Almighty God, but also for humans, and the devil himself? Are we to suppose that it is always used for the devil in the NT? Likewise, your argument, that because "κόσμος" is used in a limited sense in the Greek, and English, in some places, that this can be transferred to John 3:16, is moot!
What you failed to do, is to show the Greek lexical evidence against understanding "κόσμος", to include the whole human race. I will supply this for you. You can then give your own evidence to counter what I say.
The use of "κόσμος" in John 3:16
"the inhabitants of the world, the human race, John 3:16" (J H Thayer, Greek Lexicon)
"the world for its inhabitants, mankind, Jo. iii.16" (Bloomfield, Greek Lexicon)
"the world, for the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind, John 3.16" (Robinson, Greek Lexicon)
"the world, for the inhabitants of the earth, mankind, John 3.16" (Robson, Greek Lexicon)
"the world, i.e. the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad, John iii.16, 17" (Parkhurst, Greek Lexicon)
"of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16" (Arndt and Gingrich, Greek Lexicon)
"the inhabited world...the universe, Jn. 3:16-17" (Kittel, Theological Dictionary)
"the human race, mankind, John 3:16-17" (Vine, Expository Dictionary)
"the world of sinful humanity that opposes God, John 3:16" (Verbrugge, Theological Dictionary of NT Words)
It is very clear from this, that the use of "κόσμος" in John 3:16, is NOT done so in a limited sense, but to include the whole human race. Feel free to counter what evidence I have shown from leading Greek works, which are used by scholars and students as authorities all over the world -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
That goes against Paul's teaching in Romans 9. That goes against the prophecy of Genesis 3:15. In Romans 9, Paul wrote about vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. These are never to be mingled. One does not go from a vessel of mercy to a vessel of wrath, just as the seed of the woman never becomes the seed of the serpent. The vessels of mercy represent the elect of God, and God endured with much patience the vessels of wrath so that He could extend mercy to the very last vessel of mercy. It says Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?[Romans 9:21] The vessels of mercy were taken from the samp lump that contained the vessels of wrath. This is God's electing love as the whole human race fell in Adam. All mankind was included in the clump. God took the vessels of mercy from this same lump that He left the vessels of wrath in.
So, if God loves everybody exactly the same, and He is immutable, and His love is everlasting, which is it?
A) He loves them He pours His wrath upon on the day of Judgment?
B) He then goes from loving them to pouring His wrath on Him, which, in turn, makes Him mutable? -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
And we know God does not change, so then, by using your theology, God loves even those He will cast headlong into hell. I want no part of that love. -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
Let us take a closer loom at John 3:16-18, and see what the Apostle John is saying.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"
I would be interested to know your thoughts on the following passages from the OT and NT.
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23)
"And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?” (Jonah 4:11)
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1)
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,anot wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)
"The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." (Revelation 22:17) -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
@Saved-By-Grace....
Let's look at another verse....
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.[2 Corinthians 5:19]
On the surface, it looks like you've won the debate. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. However, there is a 500 lb gorilla that needs addressed in that verse. Those who are in the world being reconciled, these ppl are not having their sins counted against them. So, world does not mean 'everybody without exception'.
To be reconciled means that two enemies become friends. Yet, many die as God's enemy. Again, world does not mean 'everybody without exception'. -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
have you ever read verses like Psalm 106:40, which speaks of the people of Israel, the apple of God's eye, and His own chosen people from all the nations of the whole world? See what the Lord says in this verse:
"Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against His people, insomuch that He abhorred His own inheritance"
The Hebrew verb תַּעָב used here is very strong, it denotes "a detesting, a loathing"; which is much stronger than the Hebrew verb שָׂנֵא , which is used for Esau in Malachi 1:3. What does this tell you of the love of God for His very own people? Do you suppose that this is true today?
you fail to understand the Book of Jonah. Did you know that the Ninevites were a very wicked people, of whom the Jews were afraid because of the violence with which they treated their enemies? Read ancient history to get a better understanding of this. Have you ever considered why God would want to send His Prophet Jonah to these wicked people? Jonah ran away from his commission, because as we read in his own account, he did not want the Lord to save them. As a Prophet of God, surely this would not be the normal thing to do, as they were in the world to proclaim the salvation of the Lord God for lost sinners. He feared for his own life from these people, who God wanted to hear the Message of salvation, and that they also had the opportunity to "repent and believe". We read at the end of chapter 3, that all of the people, from the King to the lowest, truly cried out to the Lord for His Mercy in repentance. We read in verse 10, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not". Notice how it says, that "God saw their WORKS" not that they in any way "earned" His forgiveness, BUT, "that they TURNED FORM THEIR EVIL WAY", which is true repentance, and something that they DID. True salvation requires true REPENTANCE as well as FAITH, which is what Jesus taught in Mark 1:15.
You have taken the common use of the Greek "ἱλασμός", which does include "to propitiate". However, its use in the Greek Old Testament and in the New, has the meaning "sin-offering", "expiatory sacrifice", which is what the Greek lexicons rightly tell us. The Reformed commentary of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, is interesting here, and they cannot be accused of any ant Calvinistic bias,
"Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther). "
The same Greek verb, "ἀγοράζω" is used for the purchase of heretics who will not be in heaven, as we have in 2 Peter 2:1; and true believers in 1 Corinthians 6:20 and 1 Corinthians 7:23, and Revelation 5:9. The fact that Jesus died for these, as He also did for Judas, whom He told with the other 11, that He blood was to be shed for them ALL (see Luke 22 account of the Lord's supper. A fact that even Calvin admits in his comments on Mark 14:24), does not mean that ALL will be saved, as their salvation is conditional on their "repenting and believing". 1 Timothy 2:1-6 is very clear that God does not want any to be lost, but desires their salvation, where in verse 6 Paul speaks of Jesus being the "ἀντίλυτρον", for the ALL including ALL kings and ALL in authority, which ALL surely cannot be "elect"!
In 2 Peter chapter three Peter says, "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts" (verse 3), and goes on to say, "For this they willingly are ignorant" (verse 5), They being the scoffers. And verse 9 includes these scoffers, with whom God is not willing that they perish. Interesting here is the textual variant reading. Instead of "us", of the KJV, which would be limited to Peter and the believers he was writing to, we have the reading, "you", which has the better and older textual evidence, this is used because not only does it include Peter and the believers he is writing to, but also the "scoffers" who he is writing against! There is not other way to explain why the original "you", was changed to "us", no doubt done by those who wanted to limit what Peter was saying! -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I will not try to debate you about Greek, as the little I have learned, I have done through a series by Dr. Bill Mounce. My wife had eye trouble back in February, and then had to have retinal reattachment surgery in March, so I haven't pick that back up yet. I hope to soon, though.
But it seems to me that if the Christ bought someone, then they will be saved. If He satisfied God's wrath for every person, which is what propitiation means, then He has no more wrath over the vessels of His wrath in Romans 9. -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
The words of Robert Dabney, a solid Calvinist, are important on this passage. "In 2 Cor. 5:15, if we make the all for whom Christ died, mean only the all that live unto Him-, i.e., the elect - it would seem to be implied that of those elect for whom Christ died, only a part will live to Christ" (Systematic Theology, p. 525) -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
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