Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry Volume II

Agnus,

The way to counter any "attack" of this sort is to counter it with SCRIPTURE, Agnus. Its nothing short of insanity to think that saying something about *Mary* is going to change someones belief about *Jesus*. The scriptures have Gods blessing and annointing on them. Idolatry regarding Mary does not.

Nonsense. If those Nestorians want to believe that Mary was only the the mother of Christs humanity it will not effect in the least the person of Christ, Christs work in this world, Christs anointing and blessing towards His people, Christs new birth that is offered through faith alone, Christ working in the world through the Holy Spirit, Gods annointed scriptures, etc etc etc. No negative affect on any of that at all. Mary had nothing in the world to do with creating Christs divinity since God has no beginning, so who cares what those Nestorians believe.

All that has come from all of this "Theotokos" buisiness and "Queen of Heaven" buisiness and "Mediatrix of all grace" buisiness, and "Mother of God" business is to create millions of idolaters and Goddess worshippers, as well at least 2 large religious organisations overflowing with the same blashphemies and idolatries.

God help them.

Mike

 

Oh, so you don't believe Jesus was God?

Or do you suppose the PERSON Jesus Christ somehow ceased to be God when the Spirit inspired writers referred to Mary as "His Mother"?

The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible either. Do you suppose the Trinity is an erroneous "tradition" of man as well?


The question remains: Was the PERSON who was in Mary's womb God the Son (Word)--the Second Person of the Trinity? YES or NO?


I wonder if anyone is willing to answer this question "yes" or "no" without hemming and hawing or asking other tangential questions? Probably not. Some seem so scared to answer "yes" lest they be accused by their fellow Romaphobes of being an "idolatrous Mary worshipper". If they answer "no", they realize they'd be espousing heresy. It must be kept in mind that the term "Theotokos" (or "birthgiver of God" or "God bearer") was meant to assert unequivocally the Deity of Jesus Christ and to defend the unity of His Person. Yet many on this board seem to have a big problem asserting Christological orthodoxy because they read the term "Theotokos" through some distorted lenses. They'd rather answer questions with more (tangential) questions, propose silly syllogistic red-herrings that have no direct bearing on historical Christological contraversies, and prefer to hem and haw as to the identity of the Person in the womb just as long as they don't have to admit something that, heaven forbid, might sound too "Romish".

Y'all have a good Christmas.:wavey:

 

So which is it D28guy, is Mary the mother of Christ’s humanity only OR is Mary the mother of both Christ’s humanity and His Divinity?

Here’s where you are way off base and start your quite fast descent into the dark abode of heresy, but it’s not your fault D28guy, you’ve been taught heresy and God will give you the grace to see the truth.

Nestorianism taught that at the time of the Incarnation and after the Incarnation, the Divine and human natures of Jesus Christ were divided to such an extent that there was complete independence of natures and NO union whatsoever.

Therefore, Nestorianism rejected such terminology as God suffered or God was crucified, b/c they believed that ONLY the man Jesus Christ suffered.

In detail Nestorianism says that the Man Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary completely naturally and with all faults of men, and that God the Logos (Word), having foreknown the Man's triumph over sin, chose to redeem the human race through Him by becoming united with Him by Grace from the time of His conception. Because of His triumph over sin, the Man Jesus was made worthy of being called Son of God at the time of the Theophany. Then, after His complete triumph over sin during His passion, He was united even more closely with the Divine Logos, becoming God's tool for the salvation of mankind.

As you can image D28guy, the Third Ecumenical Council was appalled by this public teaching and fought to fiercely to combat this heresy.

Fact is Nestorianism taken to its logical conclusion denies redemption and salvation; if only the Man Jesus suffered on the cross and died for the sins of men, then how does the suffering of a man redeem the human race?

The Theotokos doesn’t say Mary created Christ’s divinity or that Mary contributed anything to the divine nature of Holy God the Son within the Holy Trinity/ Our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ. The Theotokos does however, say everything about clothing that divinity that existed from all eternity with humanity, therefore, we affirm that the person Mary gave birth to is without division both God and a human being.

ICXC NIKA
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Agnus,

You can believe what you want about me, its of no concern to me.

The way to make your point to them is to contend earnestly for the truth using the scriptures, and not to turn Mary into an idol. Telling people something about Mary is not going to affect what they believe about Jesus.

The way to make your point to them is to contend earnestly for the truth using the scriptures, and not to turn Mary into an idol. Telling people something about Mary is not going to affect what they believe about Jesus.

The way to make your point to them is to contend earnestly for the truth using the scriptures, and not to turn Mary into an idol. Telling people something about Mary is not going to affect what they believe about Jesus.

The way to make your point to them is to contend earnestly for the truth using the scriptures, and not to turn Mary into an idol. Telling people something about Mary is not going to affect what they believe about Jesus.

Hope the repitition helps,

Mike

 

Mary "Mother of God" not referenced even ONCE in the NT -- NO NOT IN ALL of scripture!!

Was the Person Mary trained "the God-man Jesus"? Yes!

So "Trainer of God"?

Joseph - "Instructor of God"??

Mary - "Wiser than God"?

Joseph "Corrector of God"?

Mary "Stronger than God"??

But ignoring this obvious point we have --DT "again"

Bringing us to the next obvious point -

Being 100% divine had nothing to do with Mary or Biology.

Biology is not a pathway to being God



What was Mary the "instructor of"?

What was Mary the "wiser than"?

What was Mary teaching "to add" when he was a small child?

What was Mary "correcting" when he was a small child?

What was Mary "protecting" when he was an infant?

...

"Corrector of God"

"Wiser than God"

"Protector of God"

... Odd how these all serve to exault the HUMAN parent to "QUEEN of the UNIVERSE" rather than exaulting Christ.

To the point that (predictably) we NOW see pictures and images of MARY the adult holding a "tiny Jesus" and we read about worship/prayers "at Mary's altars"

in Christ,

Bob

 

Agnus,

You have said several times that you are a Catecumen of the Orthodox Church.

Here are 5 examples of prayer chants that are recited during the "The Akathist Hymn to the Blessed Virgin Mary Eastern Catholic Devotion"...

Do you deny that this is an example of pure, unadulterated Goddess Worship that is going on in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

(And PLEASE spare us something like "Oh, I'm not in that *branch* of the Orthodox church", or something crazy like that. No matter what *branch* you are part of, IS THAT GODDESS WORSHIP or not?)


Mike

http://www.cin.org/akathis.html

 

Wow Mike, thanks for the link to that wonderful Hymn, I haven’t heard that particular hymn sung in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Our Akathist Hymn we chant during Easter is worded a little differently, see here for a full version: http://www.monachos.net/library/Akathist_Hymn_to_Our_Most_Holy_Lady_Mother_of_God_%28Theotokos%29

Yes Mike, the Akanthist Hymn you linked for us is from an Eastern Catholic Church. Obviously since you don’t know anything about the Theotokos or the events surrounding the affirming of the Theotokos during the Third Ecumenical Council; how should I expect you to know that there are Catholic Churches that are Eastern in their Traditions, yet remain in communion with Rome.

ICXC NIKA
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Agnus Dei,

Agnus, do you deny that this is idolatry and Goddess worship?

Mike

 

Both Mike and I are very good at looking up information from encyclopedias, dictionaries, and websites. We know quite well what theotokos means. We are quite able to read from your own websites not only the meaning, but all of the inferences that come with it.

Thus we can see why you would want to avoid answering Mike's simple question.

Do you deny that this (hymn) is idolatry and Goddess worship?

 

Good grief.

I went back to my original link that linked to the source of my random quotes. I think I missed the most blasphemous of them all. THIS...that I am about to share is....prayed....to....Mary...and not to God, during these prayer recitations....

Here it is...(may God have mercy)

That is pure unadulterated GODDESS worship. It is blasphemous. It is demonic.

May Almighty God have mercy.

Mike

 

Grace and Peace DHK,

Brother to begin to understand why this is not 'idolatry nor Goddess worship' you and the others would have to understand the 'Eastern Orthodox' distinction between God's Essense and His Energies.

To indicate the two "poles" of God's relationship to us (i.e unknown yet well-known, hidden yet revealed) the Orthodox tradition draws a distinction between the essense, nature or inner being of God, on the one hand, and His energies, operations or acts of power, on the other.

"He is outside all things according to His essense," writes Athanasius, "but He is in all things through his acts of power."

"We know the essense through the energy," Basil affirms, "No one has ever seen the essense of God, but we believe in the esense because we experience the energy." By the essense of God is meant His otherness, by the energies His nearness. Because God is a mystery beyond our understanding, we shall never know His essense or inner being, either in this life or in the Age to come. If we knew the divine essense, it would follow that we knew God in the same way as He knows Himself; and this we cannot ever do, since He is Creator and we are created. But, while God's inner essense is for ever beyond our comprehension, his energies, graces, life and power fill the whole universe, and are directly accessible to us.

The essense, then, signifies the radical transcendence of God; the energies, his immanence and omnipresence. When Orthodox speak of the divine energies, they do not mean by this an emanation from God, an "intermediary" between God and man, or a "thing" or "gift" to be possessed as an attribute that God bestows. One the contrary, the energies are God Himself in His activity and self-manifestation. When a man knows or participates in the divine energies, he truly knows or participates in God Himself, so far as this is possible for a created being. But God is God, and we are human; and so, while He possesses us, we cannot in the same way possess Him.

Just as it would be wrong to think of the energies as a "thing" bestowed on us by God, so it would be equally misleading to regard the energies as a "part" of God. The Godhead is simple and indivisible, and has no parts. The essense signifies the whole God as He is in Himself; the energies signify the whole God as He is in action. God in His entirety is completely present in each of his divine energies. Thus the essense/energies distinction is a way of stating simultaneously that the whole God is inaccessible, and that the whole God in His outgoing love has rendered Himself accessible to man.

By virtue of this distinction between the divine essense and the divine energies, we are able to affirm the possibility of a direct or mystical union between man and God (i.e. what the Greek Fathers term the theosis of man, his "deification") but at the same time we exclude any pantheistic identification between the two: for man participates in the energies of God, not in the essense. There is union, but not fusion or confusion as the case maybe. Although "oned" with the divine, man still remains man; he is not swallowed up or annihilated, but between him and God there continues always to exist an "I-Thou" relationship fo person to person.

Such, then, is our God: unknowable in His essense, yet known in His energies; beyond and above all that we can think or express, yet closer to us than our own heart. Through the apophatic way we smash in pieces all the idols or mental images that we form of Him, for we know that all are unworthy of His surpassing greatness. Yet at the same time, through our prayer and through our active services in the world, we discover at every moment His divine energies, His immediate presence in each person and each thing. Daily, hourly we touch Him. WE are, as Francis Thompson said, "in no strange land." All around us is the "many-splendoured thing", Jacob's ladder is "pitched betwixt haven and Charing Cross":

O world invisible, we view thee,
O world intangible, we touch thee,
O world unknowable, we know thee,
Inapprehensible, we clutch thee.

In the words of John Scotus Eriugena, "Every visible or invisible creature is a theophany or appearance of God." The Christian is the one who, wherever he looks, sees God everywhere and rejoices in Him. Not without reason did the early Christians attribute to Christ this saying: "Lift the stone and you will find me; cut the wood in two and there am I."

I know that the Immovable comes down;
I know that the Invisible appears to me;
I know that He who is far outside the whole of creation
Takes me within Himself and hindes me in His arms,
And then I find myself outside the whole of the World.

I, a frail, small mortal in the world,
Behold the Creator of the world, all of him, within myself;
And I know that I shall not die, for I am within the Life,
I have the whole of Life springing up as a fountain within me.
He is in my heart, He is in heaven:
Buth there and here He shows Himself to me with equal glory.
~ Symeon the New Theologian

Some of the earliest Church Fathers recognized in the Saints the 'fullest' participation in the divine energies of God yet distinct from and in Him.

It is from this understanding that the titles given to Mary, no longer a frail, small mortal in the world, but a full participant in the divine energies of Almighty God in heaven are not idolatrous nor Goddess worship. It is known in whose energies she full participates (For in him we live, and move, and have our being). She is not the source nor are these energies her possession but the generous outpouring of a loving God to His creature.

Be well.

 

Here is what I would like you to do.
1. Take your above quote, and paragraph by paragraph provide Scrptural support for it.

The part of that I have bolded sounds like pantheism. Other parts sound like humanism--the goodness of man as opposed to the inherent wickedness of man; the deification of man, as opposed to the fact that there is one and only one God.

 

So D28guy, was the Archangel, one of those who stand perpetually around the throne of God singing Gods praises worshiping Mary the Virgin when the angel said Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women! Was the angel worshiping Mary when he announced to her that she was to become the Bride of the Father and the Mother of the co-eternal Son?

Was Elizabeth worshiping Mary when she spoke with a loud voice saying Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord, should come to me?

Where both the angle and Elizabeth worshiping Mary for them honoring her?

Mary’s relationship with God IS our cause of rejoicing. Mary alone among all humanity can say that she not only received Jesus in her heart spiritually, but she housed Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world in her womb!

When the whole of creation and all of heaven rejoiced when Mary said let it be to me according to your word was Mary being worshiped?

The answer to these questions is NO. Mary herself became a prophetess when she says behold, all generations shall call me blessed.

We in the Orthodox faith Rejoice in Mary’s willingness and her cooperation to do the will of God. She is our example and role model for all generations! For this we dedicate hymns to the Theotokos, to honor Mary is to honor God.

Rejoice D28guy and sing with us: The angles offer Thee a hymn; the heavens a star; the Magi, gifts; the shepherds, their wonder; the earth, its cave; the wilderness, the manger; and we offer Thee a Virgin Mother

ICXC NIKA
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Agnus where do you get that stuff from? There is not a single case of Mary worship in any of the Scripture that you quoted. All praise and worship was given to Christ.

 

Agnus Dei,

No, and thats not what I am asking you about.

No, and thats not what I am asking you about.

No, and thats not what I am asking you about.

No, it is not, and that is an idolatrous statement.. Our cause for rejoicing is the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf, and our life changing relationship with Him that secures us for heaven through faith alone.

So...now that we have dispensed with all of these things that I have NOT asked you about, I will try again....

Are these Eastern Orthodox Catholic prayers idolatry and Goddess worship?...

Do you deny that these prayers are idolatry and goddess worship?

Mike

 

yep...

ICXC NIKA
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Personally I’m not afraid of Mary; in regard to my Protestant upbringing, I knew very little about Mary or the Saints for that matter. As an Orthodox Catechumen, I have yet to partake in Akathist service, but it’s been nice to be able to think about Mary and during lent, God willing, thank Mary and reflect back on her life.

Luke 1:48 says ALL generations shall call Mary blessed! That includes this generation; our Akathist hymn says that Mary is blessed. It may look like worship to you D28guy and to cut and past just the portions of the Hymn to push your agenda, it does, but I’ve read the whole Akathist Service Hymn that our Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian and not only are we calling Mary Blessed, but we’re also ascribing Glory to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages.

To honor Mary in a Hymn doesn’t take anything away from the Father, His Son or the Holy Spirit. The Trinity isn’t jealous, but glorified.

My oldest son plays baseball and when he makes a play and a people come up to me and complement his play, do I become jealous and wroth with anger? Heck no, I’m proud, I fell just as honored than my son, because I hear the complement.

When D28guy was the last time YOU called Mary blessed and meditated upon her life?

ICXC NIKA
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Agnus,

Thats because their isnt that much to know about her, and the scriptures dont give us all that much.

What would you thank Mary for? She had absolutly nothing to do with being chosen by God, or being used by God to bring Christ into the world. She was simply "the handmaiden of the Lord" as she referred to herself as.

And she was blessed. No doubt about it.

The Akathist chantings I posted say much MUCH more than that, sadly.

Ummm...the reason I "cut and pasted" Agnus is because this board has a "character limit". It all wouldnt fit.

If your Akathist hymn is like the one I posted...and you praised it...you are doing much much more than calling Mary blessed. You are praying a prayer that is idolatrous and nothing short of goddess worship.

I would agree, if these prayers simply contain a part that "honored" Mary or "called her blessed". But they go WAAAAAAAY past that. Those prayers I posted are idolatrous and goddess worship.

But what if they ignored your son, and engaged in a grand act of glorifying YOU and praising YOU, and lifting up YOU for producing such a fine baseball player?

How would you, as a Father, feel about that?

Earlier in this post, when I said...

But their is a HUGE difference between this...

And THIS...

Although I do in fact acknowledge that Mary was indeed blessed, I dont occupy myself with Mary all that much, because the scriptures dont occupy themselves all that much with Mary. The scriptures however do THUNDER home to us what those things are that we are to be pre-occupied with...

Our Father God

The Lord Jesus Christ.

The ministry and leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

The truth found in Gods living scriptures.

Other people who need Christ.

Our earthly brothers and sisters.

Those are the things we are to be pre-occupied with. Everything else is secondary.

God bless,

Mike

 

I’d be willing to bet that the only time Mary “occupies” you is when you’re on the BB calling all who do called her blessed, idolaters.

We honor Mary on account of her Son. Mariology is simply an extension of Christology, which is why our Hymns to Mary speak just as much to Christ as they do Mary.

The Fathers of the Council insisted on calling Mary Theotokos, not b/c they desired to glorify her as an end to herself, apart from the Son, but b/c only by honoring Mary could they safeguard a right doctrine of Christ’s person.

Anyone who thinks out the implications of the phrase: And the Word became flesh, cannot but feel a profound awe for her who was chosen as the instrument of so surpassing a mystery.

Sadly Mike, through out the life of this thread, DT, Matt, Bound and I have tried repeatedly to get you and others to answer simple yes and no questions regarding Christ’s divinity and His humanity.

Therefore, through your lack of responses, and your willingness to call others idolaters for honoring Mary, and understanding the term Theotokos, you either A) don’t believe in the Incarnation or B) really lack in your Trinitarian theology in regard to the Incarnation.

ICXC NIKA
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Agnus,

It stuns the mind sometimes. :confused:




The Trinity...

God the Father is God. Jesus Christ is God. The Holy Spirit is God. They all have different roles. But there is one God, not 3.

There is the Trinity in a nutshell. It doesnt have to be made any more complex than that. And DHK, myself and the others understand it just fine.

The Incarnation....

Jesus Christ was fully God, and yet also fully man. God selected and used a Jewish girl named Mary 2000 years ago as the one through whom Christ would be physically born.

There is the Incarnation in a nutshell. It doesnt have to be made any more complicatied than that. And DHK, myself, and and the others understand it just fine.

None of that is ANY justification whatsoever for idolatry and goddess worship of THIS magnitude to be engaged in....

Grace and peace,

Mike