Bound,
I would focus on the Syllogism this time.
My point is that the Human Syllogism doesn't work in Divine Trinity, because the Divine Trinity is much more complicated than what the human logics and reasoning can fathom even by three-dimensional approach.
Following your statement:
1) Mary is Mother of God
2) Mary is not Mother of God the Father ( as per your statement as well)
3) Therefore, God the Father is not God. ( at least you have to admit this in the sentence 1). )
1) Mary is Mother of God
2) Mary is not the Mother of God the Holy Spirit
3) God the Holy Spirit is not God ( Because God the Holy Spirit is not God in the phrase of Mother of God)
In other words, you cannot say Mother of God if you don't deny God the Father is God, God the Holy Spirit is God.
As I said, In the Bible "God" appears more than 3,640 times, and more than 99% of them was used for God the Father. Even in our life, when people say "God", it means almost all the time God the Father unless it specifically explicitly mention about Son of God or God the Holy Spirit.
Mother of God is absolutely misrepresentation of God the Creator and Mary the creature.
2 natures of Jesus cannot be divided, and Mary was not the Mother for the Divinity and God was not produced by Mary at all, and therefore nobody used the term Mother of God, because of the reasons you mentioned as hereises. Your indication is correct, and therefore nobody in the Bible used it, the conclusion is different from yours.
Sarah called Abraham " Lord" ( 1 Peter 3:6) but it doesn't make Abraham God. Jacob called Esau " Adonai" ( Lord) it doesn't mean Esau is God ( Genesis 33:13-14). Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of my Lord" She never called " Mother of God" We must follow her too. Mother of Lord or Mother of Jesus is quite OK. Why do want to stick to Mother of God? Isn't it because you want to insinuate Mary is Someone like God or Godess?
In your Syllogism, please try to find out what is wrong with the followings:
Mary is Mother of God,
David was the Great, Great Grand Father of Mary
King David is the Great, Great Grandfather of God
Mary is Mother of God
Adam is the Ancestor of Mary
Adam is Ancestor of God ( We must respect God's Ancestor !)
Sister of Mary ( Jn 19:25).
Mary is Mother of God
Sister of Mary is Sister of Mother of God
Sister of Mary is the Aunt of God
James, Brother of Jesus
Jesus is God
James is Brother of Jesus
James is God's Brother.
Do we have to venerate God's ancestor as much as RCC do for Mary?
Jesus Repudiates Mariolatry Volume II
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by D28guy, Dec 8, 2007.
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At the Psychatric Hospital ( I sometimes work for the Psychiatric Patients)
Patient A) : I am Jesus.
Patient B) : I have had no Son like you.
Patient C) : I am from the school of Gods, but have no one like you among my Alumni.
Mother of God sounds like one of these patients statements. -
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If you want me to outline the doctrine, I'll be more than happy to.
The 'fullness' of the Godhead dwell bodily... you're logic would deny this.
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Understand deification as Peter understood it "partaking of the divine nature"...
Be Well. -
That definition sounds very New Age. Here is the definition from Webster's Dictionary:
DEIFY, v.t. L. A god, and to make.
1. To make a god; to exalt to the rank of a heathen deity; to enroll among the deities; as, Julius Cesar was deified.
2. To exalt into an object of worship; to treat as an object of supreme regard; as a covetous man deifies his treasures.
3. To exalt to a deity in estimation; to reverence or praise as a deity.
The pope was formerly extolled and deified by his votaries.
DEIFICATION, n. The act of deifying; the act of exalting to the rank of, or enrolling among the heathen deities.
You have not used one Scripture verse to back up this definition. God does not possess "energies"...we are NOT interpenetrated (whatever that means) with "energies of God.
SANCTIFICATION
"Sanctify," "holy," and "saint" are translated from the same Greek words. They mean to be set apart for special service. In the Bible many things other than people are said to be sanctified-the Tabernacle furniture (Exodus 40:10-11,13); a mountain (Exodus 19:23); food (1 Timothy 4:5). It is even possible for a believer to sanctify God in his heart (1 Peter 3:15). Thus, to sanctify, or to make holy, does not mean to purify or to make sinless, but to set apart something for God and for His service.
In relation to the Christian, sanctification or holiness refers to being set apart to God from sin. -
The Christian term 'Deification' predates Websters.
Is He Satan too?
Deification is the ancient theological word used to describe the process by which a Christian becomes more like God. Peter speaks of this process when he writes, "As His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness... you may be partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:3-4).
Be Well. -
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As Man, Christ was born when for Mary, His mother, “the days were accomplished that she should be delivered” (Luke 2:6). He gradually “grew, and waxed strong in spirit” (Luke 2:40). As Mary’s son, He “was subject unto her and her spouse” (Luke 2:51). As Man, He was baptized of John in the Jordan; He went about the cities and villages with the preaching of salvation; not once before His Resurrection did he encounter a need to prove His humanity to anyone. He experienced hunger and thirst, the need for rest and sleep, and He suffered painful feelings and physical sufferings. Living the physical life natural to a man, the Lord also lived the life of the soul as a man. He strengthened His spiritual powers with fasting and prayer. He experienced human feelings: joy, anger, sorrow; He expressed them outwardly: “He was troubled in spirit” (John 13:21), showed dissatisfaction, shed tears for example, at the death of Lazarus. The Gospels reveal to us a powerful spiritual battle in the garden of Gethsemane on the night before He was taken under guard: “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death” (Matt. 26:38) — thus did the Lord describe the state of His soul to His disciples.
All of these are examples of Christ's humanity. As a 'man' He was truly a man and acted and felt as a man. We can not and should not deny this as this is not only evidenced in the Scriptures but is what was necessary in taking on our human.
Be Well. -
I would continue to encourage you to study the early Church, if for no other reason but to know what you are denying and perhaps you might find that they are not unlike some of the sincere followers of God's Word that you find in your own tradition. There is nothing inherently wrong with Sola Scriptura as long as the historical exegesis for interpreting the Scripture is maintained within one's hermeneutic. Many of the early protestant traditions maintained this but some didn't and was led astray by their own error in applying the wrong emphasis with their interpretation of the Scriptures.
The Christian past is not scary nor is it all that different from those modern scholars who have a firm grounding in the Scriptures and a Christian hermeneutic. You may disagree with some but I personally believe they offer a wonderful sounding board for our own theological theories. I believe there to be a consensual teaching of the Church which is found throughout history. It never ceased nor has it only recently sprung up in the Reformation.
Bringing up that teaching of Deification illuminates the early Churches own understanding of Sanctification and helps shed light on their views of Mary and the Saints after they ascended into heaven and shared a seat with Christ at the right hand of the Father. This partaking in the divine nature as Peter described it was a union with the Trinity and in a certain sense a 'sharing' in the divine nature as part of the destiny of man. It is from this foundation of understanding that the Saints were understood to be aware and effectual in their prayers for the earthly Church.
I would be curious to know how you interpret 1 Peter 1:3-4? You're theology of Sanctification appears stunted by our refusal to recognize man's participation with and in God.
Again Be Well. -
Glorified -- to make glorious by bestowing honor, praise, or admiration.
Glorious -- possessing or deserving glory
Glory -- praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent. worshipful praise, honor, and thanksgiving
It seems to me that while there is indeed a recognition that while those already in heaven are in no way God, if they are truly 'glorified' wouldn't there is some type of praise that is appropriately theirs? Is offering praise to someone by default identifical to worship? -
Ireneus believed that Christ lived to the age of 80.
Yet these are the men that make up the "consensual teachings of the Church." They are fallible, sinners, and some of them not even saved.
Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we will remeber the name of our Lord.
What do you trust in? The ECF? Amazing! It is as if you put their authority above the authority of the Word of God.
It is quite apparent that all, if not most, of the ECF did not have a good grounding in the Word of God.
Tertullian waffled back and forth on baptism. Which Tertullian will you believe? Formerly he believed along with the "consensus of teaching" as you would say that baptism did not have to be by immersion. But then Tertullian got saved in his later years and became a Montanist. He totally rejected his former beliefs on baptism. Now he believed that salvation was by faith alone, and baptism by immersion must follow. Believing such he placed himself outside of the "consensual teaching," but inside of the teaching of the Bible. Where do you stand?
2 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Verse one says that God has begotten us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the main part of the verse when you take away the prepositional phrases. Peter praises God because of the new birth (we are born again from above) by the resurrection. Without the resurrection there is no gospel. You must be born again. That is what "begotten" refers to.
The ultimate object or hope of our salvation is further described in verse two: to an inheritance uncorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you. All of this is ours as a result of our faith in Christ. It is our inheritance. -
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life."
I will not see heaven until I die or until Jesus comes: one of the two. Thus there is no way that I can share in the glory of those that are dead, or those that have died and whose spirits are now in heaven.
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--Thou (GOD) alone is worthy to receive glory and honour.
God and Him alone is worthy. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Be interested to see what everyone makes of this, which is a request to Mary dated c250AD - ie: long before Ephesus in 432 and certainly predating by a good 70+ years the 'nasty, Catholic-Church-founding' Constantine.
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To say the good thief did 'absolutely nothing' doesn't quite seem correct to me either. If that was the case, why was he welcomed into the kingdom and the other one not? -
As much as you desire to divide the early Church from the Scriptures or the Early Fathers from the Scriptures you fail to recognize that your own methods of interpretation are born from a 'tradition' all it's own. To be honest we should 'test everything' including our own 'traditions' conclusions against what is evident as the interpretations of those who walked before us.
As I've said before, the Jews had the Law and the Scriptures and neither kept them from straying. You're apriori presumption that the 'word of God' will save you from error has no foundation in experience. You know this, I know this but you would still through these 'strawmen' up as 'good sound bites'. Come now, DHK.
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. ~ 2 Peter 1:3-4
This is what we mean by Deification or Sanctification. Grace is to an effect.
Be Well. -
If you emphasize the Oneness of God, then are you claiming that Mary is Mother of God the Father because God cannot be divided?
You claimed Mary is the Mother of God, then it should mean Mother of God the Father and Mother of God the Holy Spirit, because God cannot be divided, right?
Is God the Father not God? Is He God? then why is He not the God in the sentence of Mother of God?
As for Adam, Adam was the Ancestor of Mary, which nobody can deny.
Why don't you call Adam, the Ancestor of God? It is unfair !
Didn't David obey to God when the prophecy came to him about the kingdom of God? Why don't you call David, the Great Great Grandfather of God? It is unfair, and your exalting Mary as Mother of God can be accepted only as the exaltation of the woman, goddess !!!!! A heartful confession by the devout goddess worshippers !!! Strong Paganism ! -
The Godhead is 'fully' present in each person of the Holy Trinity. Where one person is the fullness of God dwells. Jesus Christ 'is' God among us, not in part but in full as the verses I have offered for you to ponder.
Mary is the Theotokos (God-Bearer) just as Jesus is the Anthropos (God-Man).
The second person of the Holy Trinity entered creation through Fleshly Doors of Heaven, Mary. Why do we call Mary the 'Fleshly Doors of Heaven'... because God passed through them into His Creation! He chose her as His mother, the vessel of our salvation (i.e. ark).
From a sermon by Augustine, bishop of Hippo:
Stretching out his hand over his disciples, the Lord Christ declared: Here are my mother and my brothers, anyone who does the will of my Father who sent me is my brother and my sister and my mother. I would urge you to ponder these words. Did the Virgin Mary, who believed by faith and conceived by faith, who was the chosen one from whom our Saviour was born among men, who was created by Christ before Christ was created in her... did she not do the will of the Father?
Indeed the blessed Mary certainly did the Father's will, and so it was for her a greater thing to have been Christ's disciple than to have been his mother, and she was more blessed in her discipleship than in her motherhood. Hers was the happiness of first bearing in her womb him whom she would obey as her master.
Mary isn't the Mother of God because of flesh and blood but of faith 'do unto me what you have said'. Mary's Fiat (i.e. her participation) was to His Glory and her reward.
Mary isn't honored because of flesh and blood by because of her faith, obedience and participation in Salvation. His Glory, her reward.
Be Well. -
1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--We trust the Spirit to give us understanding, not the ECF.
2. We should test everything against what the Bible says, not what other men say. Your method will only lead to heresy, especially if you follow men like Origen.
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
He went through the OT, and comparing Scripture with Scripture, he showed them all the Scripture that pertained to Him--"corncerning Himself." There is no better example of sola scriptura than that.
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
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