To God, I am already perfect, but for me, that will happen when i am in a glorified state, at rapture/Second coming of christ!
John MacArthur is addressing Catholic heresies
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by annsni, Feb 25, 2013.
Page 3 of 4
-
-
Thinkingstuff Active Member
-
Thinkingstuff Active Member
-
God sees and know all things, so to Him I have already been perfected/risen and glorified, but as to me, that still has to happen in "real time!" -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Sure, but......what is missing in this conversation is the word redemption.
Romans 8 tells us that we are all waiting for redemption. I Peter 1 tells us the same thing. Our salvation is secured. Our redemption (perfecting of our bodies and mind) is yet to be seen. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
OK, it is possible then that we are using different terms to describe similar if not the same things: you say 'redemption', others speak of 'glorification', Catholics speak of 'purging'; we are all talking about the need for us to become 'holy as God is holy' I believe.
My question to you, then, who use the words 'redemption' or 'glorification' is this: what happens if this process is incomplete at death? -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
The RCC is a salvation by works belief system, they state that the sacraments are needed for salvation. Here is what the catechism says about it.
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior. (1257, 2003, 460)
this is what the Bible tells us in Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Romans 3:19-26
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
RCC teaching is in direct conflict to what the Bible says. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No, it's in conflict with what you say the Bible says. Massive difference.
-
and what does the Bible say about the sacraments ?
-
-
I was using Romans 5:1 for example:
Romans 5:1 δικαιωθεντες ουν εκ πιστεως ειρηνην εχομεν προς τον θεον δια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου
--ek pistews. That is the phrase that means "by faith." One cannot add anything to that phrase. It means "by faith alone," not "by faith plus baptism" or any other "plus." There is no plus sign. It is by faith alone. Luther has nothing to do with anything.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Clearly salvation is not of works; it is not of anything that you can do; not of yourself.
One of the most important verses in the Bible is John 3:3, "you must be born again."
Verse 5 says: You must be born of water and of the Spirit.
The RCC wrongly interprets "water" to mean baptism, thus relegating the doctrine of regeneration to baptismal regeneration which the Bible does not teach. Baptism does not equal salvation. Water is not magic that can save your soul.
This demonstrates that they do not believe "salvation is all of God," but they must do their part. They must baptize. Christ's blood was not sufficient enough to cover all their sins, they must baptize to do what Christ was not able to complete on the cross. Baptism = new birth. That is in the Catechism. And that is blasphemy.
To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord.
If I am saved, when I die I leave this sinful body behind and go straight to heaven. My sinful body stays here. To think that anything sinful is entering into heaven is nonsense. All those sins have been forgiven.
Sin on this earth may cause a loss of fellowship, as disobedience of a child will cause a rift between father and son. But the father does not disown his son. Neither will the heavenly Father ever disown his children who have been born into his family.
Would you pay me because I receive your gifts?
Would you pay me because I earn the money, work for the money that you will give me at the end of the day for my labor? Hopefully. It is the law.
That is the difference that Paul explains in Romans 4:1-5. -
We are clothed in chrsit, the father sees us as if jesus Himself standing before him, how much more cn ANYTHING add to that state? -
They deny the heart of chrsitianity, the Cross of Christ! -
Rome wants to give it lip service, but still have us get part of the glory/work of getting us saved by God!
You and I disagree between calvinism/Arminian theologies, but BOTH of us affirm that its grace alone which we receive by/thru faith alone, that is the Gospel, NOT the mixture of works/grace Rome teaches! -
-
A person who holds fully what the RCC theology teaches concerning salvation cannot agree with the truth that God has fully and freely justified us before God by the cross, for IF they held to that cardinal truth and affirm it, their entire system of sacramentalism/Priesthhood/Apostolic succession etc woould come crashing down !
This is why they were so vehement protesting agains tht ecalvins/Luthers of the time of the reformation! -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I'm aware it doesn't contain the word μόνον (alone)
OK, let's compare and contrast your two immediately following statements:
Come on, be reasonable: if the Holy Spirit had meant there to be an 'alone' there, He would have put it there, just as He did in James 2:24
-
In the engine of a car (like mine) the fuel is gas (petrol). If any other fuel is used the car will be ruined. It runs on gas alone. The word "alone" is not necessary for me to use every time I tell you: "My car runs on gas (alone); others run on diesel (alone). See the redundancy?
However, if I say my car runs on gas alone the typical Catholic will jump in with all kinds of red herrings and say: No it doesn't. It runs on four wheels, engine oil, transmission oil, four cylinders, etc., etc. These are frivolous red herrings. My engine runs on gas alone! That is the only fuel that it uses.
The engine is comparable to salvation. It will get you to your destination. You can't get there without an engine. The fuel is likened to faith. There is only one engine and that is Christ. There is only one faith. I cannot put water into the engine or it will be destroyed. Only petrol/gas will keep the engine running. If it is mixed with diesel or works it will be destroyed. It is a high performance engine. The fuel is faith. It is that simple. Faith and faith alone saves. It is the only thing that will operate the engine.
But what about the wheels? The wheels will get you to your destination. Your destination is glorification.
And the engine oil, transmission oil, cylinders, brakes, and all the other working parts of the vehicles are those things that make up the Christian walk. They are the things that we must do on a day to day basis as we wind our way through this life on our way to our final destination. They are the working parts of our Christian life. We can't get through life without prayer, reading the Word, witnessing, etc.
We can't even start the Christian life if we don't first put fuel in the engine. That is where it all begins. You need an engine (Christ). You need fuel (faith). Without that you have nothing. The engine is run by gas alone; not gas plus water or gas plus diesel, but gas alone. Did I really have to say "gas alone"?
Page 3 of 4