The OT Prophets spoke of God storing up His wrath as in Cups/Bowls, to be poured out over the people, as in the Bowls of revelation, and so Jesus did experience those judgments in our place, as it was indeed for the wrath Of God being poured out against our sins!
Just how does the wrath of god be appeased if no penal Substitution?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020.
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Remember Ezekiel's vision of God's presence that he has in Babylon. The whole point of that vision is that God has accompanied His people into exile into Babylon. Just as God went with Israel into Babylon, so also God goes with humanity into our exile on the cross.
You keep framing the narrative as if humanity is yet to experience any wrath from God due to sin, and if a person becomes a Christian, then they will never have to experience that wrath because Jesus suffers it in their place. That is not the Biblical narrative. The Biblical narrative is that humanity is dead in our sin, and God raises us up to new life. Our hope is not in avoiding wrath, but in resurrection from wrath. -
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This is all they have, post nonsense to hide the truth. -
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For example, one major misunderstanding that I think you mentioned was the idea of a debt of punishment that humans owe God. Such a debt of punishment does not exist in Scripture (The Bible says the exact opposite, that the wages of sin is death), yet this is a huge part of both Catholic and Protestant understandings of the atonement. -
So what was "bought" by Christ's suffering and death was the right to justify, forgive and save anyone God places in Christ, those to be placed in Christ, and those never to be placed in Christ were "bought" with the blood of Christ.
Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Tell me where I have missed the mark. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Satan is the accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10). In Zechariah 3:1-5, we see Joshua the High Priest clad in filthy garments and Satan ready to accuse him. Now Joshua's position entitled him to wear the rather splendid garments described in Exodus 28, so the 'filthy garments must describe his moral state before God (Isaiah 64:6). There is nothing in Ezra, Haggai or Zechariah which suggests that he was a particularly egregious sinner, so his situation must be the same as the rest of us. '...All by nature children of wrath.' 'There is none righteous, no not one.' s
Satan's accusation of Joshua, that he is a sinner with whom God can have nothing to do, can only be dismissed by his sins being taken away, typified by him being 'clothed with rich robes' (v.4). This is the victory of the Lord Jesus Christ. He has 'removed' our iniquity from us by becoming sin for us - that is, having them laid upon Him - bearing the curse of them, and paying the penalty for them in full on the cross. -
Christus Victor and Penal Substitution Theory are competing theories (while both may be wrong, both cannot be true). -
Or consider this: Let's say Mike gouges out your eye. A genie appears to you and says "I will give you (a) retribution without restitution, that Mike loses an eye but you keep seeing in 2-D the rest of your life, or (b) restitution without retribution, that your eye will be restored to you even better than it was before, but Mike will go unpunished. Everyone of course would choose (b). Restitution is the main priority of justice, and retribution does not accomplish it.
Yes, sins are debts, but not debts of punishment. They are debts of obedience. Jesus' obedience to the will of the Father on the cross is what cancels out our debts of obedience. -
2 Corinthians 5:21 does not refer to Jesus becoming sin in any ontological or legal sense. The point is that just as the church becomes the ultimate expression of God's covenant faithfulness (we become the righteousness of God) so also Jesus, by his crucifixion, became the ultimate expression of human sin. All sin against God and all sin against man contributed to the death of the God-man, Jesus Christ. -
And the "sin debts" are incurred via human disobedience, and are cancelled when God places us into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration and the circumcision of Christ.
As far as debts of punishment, the unforgiven suffer "eternal punishment" for their sins. The concept of "storing up wrath" suggests the more a person sins the more punishment they will incur in Hades and Gehenna. -
"I did not say nor suggest retribution is the same as restitution. "
You said: "God's justice requires we "pay" by being punished for the injustice we caused. But since all our righteous acts (while in a state of being made sinners) are as filthy rags to God, we cannot pay our debt."
You say that we pay by being punished. That is to equate retribution with restitution. But then in the next sentence you say that we cannot pay our debt because our righteous acts are filthy rags, so that makes me wonder what you think our sin-debt is; is it a debt of punishment or a debt of righteousness? I believe it is the latter, and that is what Jesus pays on our behalf. Jesus does not pay a debt of punishment, because there is no such thing.
When God stores up wrath for sinners, that is something He "pays" to sinners (the wages of sin is death), not something sinners pay to Him. Wages are the exact opposite of debts. I agree people go to hell, but fail to see how that pays for anything that God lost due to human sin. -
Did our sin cause God's loss? No one said that.
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