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Katrina - Random Act or Wrath of God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by James_Newman, Sep 3, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    This refers to the events at Pentecost, the tongues of fire and the foreign languages, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. That is quite obvious if you read the passage without dispensational bias.

    The rest is simply apocalyptic language which is used in a number of Books in the Old Testament and in the Book of Revelation to describe the intervention of God in history. It is not to be interpreted literally.

    Dispensationalist John F MacArthur, writing in Charismatic Chaos, writes as follows [page 91]:

    "Some of the apocalyptic passages, such as those in Zechariah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, or Revelation, contain obvious figures and symbols that must be studied carefully to see the literal truth they are conveying. That kind of symbolic language, however, is not the norm in Scripture and it is conspicuous where employed. Sometimes the symbolism is hard to interpret, but by studying the historical setting, one can usually discern a clear meaning."

    Ray Frank Robbins, a former professor at the New Orleans Baptist Seminary, describes apocalyptic literature, as follows [Revelation: Three Viewpoints, G. R. Beasley-Murray, Herschel H. Hobbs, Ray Frank Robbins.] :

    “We need to keep in mind the difference between the prophetic and the apocalyptic view of history. This will help us to interpret, I think, what the writer is saying. The prophetic view of history was that God and people work together. God and people work together to bring history to an end, to a goal. This was the prophetic view that we find in the former prophets. The Hebrews called the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings, the former prophets. In these books God and His people are represented as working together to bring history to its desired end. After the return from exile, and especially during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes [175-163 BC] it looked like the more godly, the more righteous the people were, the less they succeeded and the more they suffered. And so, there grew up a different view of history. This was known as the apocalyptic view. This view held that the world would become so evil and corrupt that God would intervene in history from without. He would break into history from without and would accomplish His purpose dramatically without the help of man. Now these two views of history were different in emphasis. The writer of Revelation combines the apocalyptic and the prophetic views.”

    As for Jerusalem being delivered you need to read Joel 2:32 again and without the Darby/Scofield bias.

    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

    Notice that the passage does not say that Jerusalem would be delivered but that in Jerusalem shall be deliverance. Those at Pentecost who believed received deliverance from sin.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Grasshopper said:
    How do you mean this statement Grasshopper? Please explain.

    HankD
     
  3. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    In response to the OP here is what I posted on another thread in this forum.


     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    4His_glory

    Some very pertinent observations.

    It is generally the case that the righteous suffer with the wicked. Jesus Christ pointed this out a number of times and of course the Old Testament demonstrates this truth again and again.

    I would note that God never did answer Job's questions but through the questions posed to Job demonstrated His Glory. The Prophet Isaiah contrast God and mankind as follows:

    Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    I would also note that it is probably better to say that God allowed Katrina rether than sent Katrina.

    You eloquently state:

    "Let us stand in awe of His wonder and delight in His power and bow ourselves before His perfect ways. Who can know the mind of the Lord?"
     
  5. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Right on OldRegular. We ought to say God allowed Katrina rather than sent Katrina. That would be a better way of saying it, especially when we are speaking of this matter with unregenerate persons so as to not mar the character of God.

    I stand corrected.

    I do realize God did not Job's questions, but demontrated His glory through His own questioning of Job. I was trying to communicate that, but you put it much better than I ever could.

    God bless.
     
  6. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    I agree with Old Regular.
    To say God allowed is one thing.
    To say God sent is another.
     
  7. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    It seems for dispensational theology to hold any water you must have a continuation of the Jews from the first century. Dispies teach that the promises made to the Jews are still unfulfilled, but will be in the future. However if there is no “Jewish race” what happens to this view?

    So the question becomes “who is a Jew”? Are converts to Judaism part of the covenant God made to OT Jews? If you were to convert Judaism today are you now part of these future promises? Are these promises not based on race, but religion? I don’t believe dispies would allow for this but I may be wrong. If so, then that brings up other problems.

    So are those in modern Israel the descendants of those OT/1st century Jews? If so which ones, the black Ethiopian Jews, the white European Jews, or the brown Palestinian area Jews? You would agree the bloodline has been diluted to have this “rainbow coalition” of Jews. This brings up the question “how much Jewish blood must you have to be a Jew? Not only do they have to be Jews, but there also must be 12,000 out of each tribe according to the literal dispie interpretation of Revelation. So can you identify which Jews belong to which tribe? Can anyone? Only God right? Do you really believe there are a large number of Jews in the land that have not inter-married for the last 2,000 years? Think about that, they were dispersed all over the world for centuries but have somehow kept their bloodline pure to the point of tribal identification? Hard to believe. Keep these thoughts in mind as you read the following statements:

    Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
    "It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .

    "Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

    Encyclopedia Americana (1986)

    "Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

    Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)

    "A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).

    The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)

    'The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropornetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)


    There is a book by an old Baptist preacher John Bray called “Israel in Bible Prophecy.” In it he shows that most of those in modern Israel are descendants of people who converted to Judaism over a 1000 years ago. I recently found this link below that gives an even more detailed account. Not sure who this site belongs to but it contains the same info found in Bray’s book:


    http://www.thewinds.org/library/khazars.html

    So, what if those to whom the OT promises were made no longer exist?
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Lady eagle

    You are wimping out. MacArthurs remarks from the above link has nothing to do with his identification of Apocalyptic literature in the Bible. :rolleyes: :D [​IMG]
     
  10. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    GH: Oh, but they do. You just don't know who they are and THEY don't know who they are yet. But I have no doubt God knows who they are!

    I notice none of your outdated references are up to speed via the latest technology and genetic mapping. DNA science now blows your theories of rainbow Jews out of the water.

    Just goes to show how much all the so-called experts know on which they build their faulty eschatology instead of believing God's Word.

    And yes, there will be 144,000 - 12,000 from each of the tribes just as God says in the Book of Revelation and they will be literal people who know WHO they are and WHAT TRIBE they are from!

    It doesn't take any imagination now (knowing medical and scientific knowledge is being increased because we are in the End Times, just as the Bible says) to realize that God will allow man to unlock the secrets of genetic mapping so there will be scientific proof positive that all 144,000 will be from the original genetic lines of the 12 tribes.

    Oh, yeah.
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Israel was chosen for the purpose of bringing Jesus Christ into the world. That choice was narrowed to the tribe of Judah and then to the lineage of David. Once Jesus Christ was born and fulfilled His mission the mission of Israel was completed. Those who are redeemed from Israel are redeemed and will be redeemed the same as all people, one at a time through faith in Jesus Christ.
     
  12. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    OR: Not wimping out. MacArthur is not a credible source. If he is in error on some things, why should he be credible on others?
     
  13. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Come on LE. answer the question. When did the "end times" begin?
     
  14. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    And furthermore, I don't really care if any of you see Katrina or 09/11 as God's possible judgment on our nation or a random act.

    Some people do see God allowing this to happen as the wrath of God on this sinful nation.

    They have ordered 40,000 body bags. A few random basic tests on the water in NOLA shows 20 different colonies of organisms, most arising from the raw sewage that is heavily concentrated in the water. All kinds of human waste organisms are in that water, gasoline, oil, natural gas, toxins, poisonous compounds, bacteria, viruses of hepatitis A and hepatitis B, and God knows what else. There are decomposing bodies of thousands and thousands humans and animals in that water. The health risks are enormous and potential for epidemics is understated. As the water is pumped out, the concentrations become more concentrated. First responders have been exposed to all of this without proper medical defense precautions. The people themselves that were rescued have been exposed. Mosquitoes breed in that water and malaria, dysentery, West Nile Virus and other disease are being spawned. Now the EPA has lifted the barriers and all that water is being pumped into the Mississippi River and the Lake and will end up in the Gulf of Mexico to affect the sea life and the food chain - OUR food chain. The EPA has admitted that no one knows what the long term effects will be on the Gulf of Mexico. TB and other community viruses breed and are passed around in large groups of people living in unsanitary conditions. These diseases and viruses can be passed along, unknowingly, in our communities as people spread out to other areas in our Nation.

    In the long term, millions and millions of people could possibly be affected, not just in the areas affected by the storm and flood, but throughout this nation and even globally. The ramifications of this have the potential to reach far and wide.

    Plus this is the beginning of hurricane season. There may be more "natural" devastation to come.

    Plus the terrorists aren't done with us yet.

    Go ahead. Ignore the Wrath of God. Go ahead and think these things happen randomly. Say the verses in the OT in God's Word don't apply to today, that the warnings only applied to OT Israel. Go ahead. Ridicule people who take these things seriously and have fear of God's Judgment and Holiness.

    Let the Good Times Roll. After all, we are living in the AGE of GRACE aren't we? Oh, but you don't believe in dispensations? Well, where does that leave us, then? Even the Church Age, after the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, is a dispensation.

    What will it take to get the attention of God's people to repent and wake up from their sleep? What will it take to get America's attention? Perhaps it is too late. God has spared nations because of righteous men. And God has destroyed nations because of wickedness.

    Investigate Martinique 1902. The occultists crucified a pig and dragged the cross to the top of the volcano in mockery of God and the Volcano erupted and destroyed about 40,000 people in fire and volcanic ash. But it was a coincidence.

    If you think I am angry, I am not. Just disgusted. And sad. It's not me you have to fear. Fear God. Yes, God is love. But He is also a Righteous and Holy God and He is a Jealous God.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Lady Eagle

    Good to see you back!

    Notice, that not all the tribes are included. The tribe of Dan is missing. The tribe of Joseph is included as is the half tribe of Manasseh. Since the tribe of Joseph, the father of Ephraim and Manasseh, is included why is the half tribe of Manasseh included? Expositors who want to interpret this passage literally have attempted to explain the absence of Dan, the inclusion of both Manasseh and Joseph, and the absence of Ephraim in various ways. However any attempt to interpret this passage literally creates problems. The fact is that the twelve tribes of Israel are not all listed. Therefore the simple solution to the apparent problem is that the passage is not written to be interpreted literally but symbolically.

    If the passage must be interpreted symbolically how are we to understand it? Who are the hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel? Since the vision is given for the comfort of those saints who are living and and the sealing of the servants of God occurs prior to the outpouring of the wrath of God, I believe that the 144,000 represent all the redeemed of God on earth at any time in history.
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Lady Eagle

    You said God would punish America because of our treatment of Israel. I say this country is the only friend Israel has in the world.

    That being said, it is dispensationsl nonsense to state that God would punish those for whom Jesus Christ died because of a people, Israel, who rejected that sacrificial Death.
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Then I assume that you believe that dispensational doctrine is error free. As I recall dispensationalist doctrine claimed the so-called "pre-trib rapture" would occur when the EU reached 10 members. That time is long past.
     
  18. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Old Regular, why do you assume all dispensationalists believe the same thing???

    I never believed the rapture would occur when the EU reached 10 members, and I don't know anyone who did. My position is that we do not know when these things will take place because Jesus said no man knows.

    Why do amills and posttribs think pre-mills or dispensationalists are all agreeing on these things?
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Marcia

    I would never confuse what those who hold the historic or covenant pre-millennial view of the Second Coming with the dispensational view of the Second Coming. Following is a very brief summary of these two doctrines as i understand them. I will appreciate those who hold to these doctrines pointing out my misunderstanding.

    Covenant or Historic Pre-millennial Eschatology

    Covenant premillennialism is, along with amillennialism, one of the oldest theologies of the events associated with the second-coming. In fact, people who hold this view will insist that it was the view of the early Church and predated amillennialism by several hundred years. [Some claim that Augustine {354-430 AD} was the first writer to present the amillennial view.] There is much in common between the covenant premillennial and amillennial viewpoints.

    The major difference is the covenant premillennial belief in a separate resurrection of the believers followed by a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth with His Saints. This millennial kingdom, however, is a kingdom in which the Church, not the restored Jewish nation, rules with the glorified Saviour. Covenant premillennialists, like many amillennialists and postmillennialists, believe in a large scale conversion of the Jews prior to the second-coming. Covenant premillennialists also believe that prior to the return of Jesus Christ there will be a period of increased tribulation on the earth. and that the Church is present during this period. To bring this tribulation to an end Jesus Christ returns with the souls of the deceased Saints at which time the first resurrection would occur.

    Upon His coming the Lord Jesus Christ will destroy the antichrist, bind and cast Satan into the bottomless pit, and establish the millennial kingdom, ruling with His Church. During this period people will be born and die, some saved and some not. [It is not clear how people are to be saved during this 'millennium’. Salvation by faith seems meaningless since Jesus Christ is physically on the earth. Also no explanation is ever given as to how mortal man can live in the presence of Jesus Christ who has returned to reign in the full glory of the Godhead Exodus 33: 18-23; Revelation 19; Matthew 16: 27; Mark 8: 38; Luke 9: 26; Revelation 1: 7].

    At the end of the millennium Satan will be released for his “little season” and will suffer final defeat. At this time the resurrection of the all unbelievers and those believers who died during the millennium will occur followed by the Great White Throne judgment. Satan and his followers will then be cast into the lake of fire and the new heavens and new earth will be created [2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 21:1].

    Dispensational Eschatology

    Dispensationalism as a system of Biblical interpretation was formally promulgated about 1830 by John Nelson Darby, a member of the Plymouth [England] Brethren. This system of interpretation, with its emphasis on Old Testament prophecy, began at a time when many of the established churches ignored Biblical prophecy. Darby’s emphasis on prophecy, therefore, captured the interest and perhaps the imagination of many. Darby visited the United States six times between 1859 and 1874 [John Newport in The Lion and the Lamb, page 100]. His teaching apparently exerted considerable influence on his contemporaries, particularly E. I. Scofield. The publication of the Scofield Reference Bible, which made the system of dispensational interpretation an integral part of the Bible notes, had a significant impact on the spread of dispensational thought in this country.

    The major teachings of the dispensationalists on the return of Jesus Christ are as follows:

    1. The dispensational approach to eschatology [the doctrine of last things] is founded principally on interpretation of the Old Testament [Hermon Hoyt in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints by Clouse, page 67, quoting from John F. Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom].

    2. Dispensationalism teaches that the Church will be removed from the earth suddenly [by an ‘any-moment’ return of Jesus Christ] prior to the ‘so-called’ seven years of tribulation.

    Therefore, the Dispensationalist insists that only the first three chapters of Revelation are applicable to the Church. Chapters 4-19 describe the events that occur during the seven years of tribulation and are thus of no concern to the Church but of primary concern to the nation Israel.

    [It is also worth noting at this point that dispensationalist John F. Walvoord also writes in Major Bible Prophecies that the time lapse between “the Rapture” and the “second-coming” will be more than seven years [pages 283, 293], certainly not a literal interpretation of Daniel’s seventh week.]

    3. At the beginning of the seven year period the head of the revived Roman Empire will make a covenant with the Jews [based on the dispensational interpretation of Daniel 9:27]. In the midst of this period this leader will break the covenant and ban sacrifices in the rebuilt temple. Intense persecution of the Jews will follow. During this seven year period the majority of the Jewish people will embrace Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Also vast numbers of Gentiles will be saved under the preaching of 144,000 Jewish missionaries.

    4. Dispensationalism teaches that at the end of the seven year tribulation period Jesus Christ will return to earth in power and great glory and reign for 1000 years with a ‘rod of iron’ from ‘David's throne’ in Jerusalem. During this period of time Satan will be bound and imprisoned in the bottomless pit. Those who enter the millennial kingdom will be believing Jews and Gentiles, all others will be put to death. Walvoord teaches in Major Bible Prophecies that David will reign as coregent with Jesus Christ in the millennial kingdom. He writes [page 393] “Though many have tried to explain away this passage [Ezekiel 37:24-25], it obviously requires the second coming of Christ, the establishment of David’s kingdom on earth, the resurrection of David, and David’s sharing the throne of Israel as coregent with Christ.”

    5. Dispensationalism teaches that during this 1000 year period the Gentile nations will be subservient to Israel and that all people will come to Jerusalem to worship in the rebuilt temple through burnt offerings which are supposedly only ‘memorial in nature’. During this period people will be born and die, some saved and some not. [It is not clear how people are to be saved during this ‘Jewish millennium’. Salvation by faith seems meaningless since Jesus Christ is physically occupying the throne of David. Also no explanation is ever given as to how mortal man can live in the presence of Jesus Christ who has returned to reign in the full glory of the Godhead Exodus 33: 18-23; Revelation 19; Matthew 16: 27; Mark 8: 38; Luke 9: 26; Revelation 1: 7].

    6. During this 1000 year period the Church will apparently be suspended above the earth in the New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21. Some contend that the tribulation Saints and the Old Testament Saints will be resurrected and join the Church in the New Jerusalem.

    7. At the end of the millennium Satan will be released from the pit, he and his followers will suffer final defeat. Included among his followers will be people who are unbelievers? that are born during the millennium.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thank you Grasshopper for your answer, I appreciate the amount of work you put into it and there is a lot of food for thought in it. I haven't read the link concerning the Kahzars completely.

    I believe the Ashkenazi Jews are those who are of mixed blood lines while the Sephardic Jews have better evidence that they go back genetically to Abraham.

    It really doesn't matter.
    Traditionally a Jew is introduced into the community by circumcision and Bar Mitzvah (and someimes "mikvah" - Jewish baptism), for males.

    Bat mitzvah and mikvah for women, regardless of bloodlines.

    Bar/Bat Mitzvah is a voluntary confirmation of Judaism as a way of life.

    It's that simple an anwer as to "who a is a Jew?".

    I will admit that it gets complicated as the rabbis of almost all flavors of Judaism say that there must be a Jewish mother for one to be called a bloodline "Jew".

    I believe there must be (maybe someone else can help) three generations of adherents to the Torah from the female convert down to be considered a bloodline Jew.

    Last, if God desires that there be a group of "pure" bloodline Jews in the "end times" then He is able.

    While I am not a full fledged "dispensationalist" I believe that there are just too many unfullfilled prohecies to Israel that need closure for the Word of God to be finalized.

    IMO, every synagogue has the testimony of "The Torah" which stands as a fulfillment of Jesus words.

    Matthew 5
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    When did the "end times" begin?

    IMO, Friday the 14th May 1948 (Erev Shabbat 5th Iyar 5708) is a definite possibility.

    http://www.brijnet.org/israel50/decl-eng.htm

    HankD
     
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