Featured Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

No DHK, we have been over this, this speaks of a man dying "in his sin" which speaks of eternal damnation.

Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

These verses are not speaking of civil penalties, they are speaking of a man dying "in his sin" as Jesus spoke of in John 8:

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

However, these verses do not support the idea that a man can lose salvation. Eze 18:21 shows that if a man repents and trusts in God that his sins will be forgiven, and "in his righteousness" he will live. We are clearly told that righteousness is only imputed to those who believe in Romans chapter 4.

As for Eze 18:24, all men are born upright, and all men turn from their righteousness and will die in their sins unless they trust in the Lord.

 

double post

 

And one of the proofs that a man cannot lose salvation is circumcision. When Abraham believed God, he was commanded to be circumcised which was a "seal" of the righteousness imputed him.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

When Abraham believed God without works in Genesis 15, it was imputed to him for righteousness. He was then circumcised as a seal of the righteousness imputed him.

Circumcision cannot be reversed. It is permanent. Do what you may, once you are circumcised it is final.

Today believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and it is the same thing, we are sealed unto the day of redemption. We are joined to the Spirit to become one spirit (1 Cor 6:17) and we partake of the divine nature. We cannot fall away in sin because our seed remains in us and we cannot sin (1 Jhn 3:9). It is permanent like circumcision.

 

We are told "do not grieve the Holy Spirit by whom you were sealed" Eph 4:30.

"They Grieved the Holy Spirit Therefore He turned to become their enemy" Is 63:10

1Cor 10
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them


We are never "sealed against our free will".

We are never sealed such that we have no free will.

We are in fact warned in the Bible NOT to grieve the Holy Spirit - no not even as they did.

in Christ,

Bob

 

So I have to teach you and the SDA's the same thing?
Look what you just did? You quote verse 18 and then jump to verse 21!
What is wrong with verse 19 and 20? Does it give the context and destroy your argument.

CONTEXT:
Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
--Here Ezekiel says that a man will pay the full penalty of the civil law for the laws that he has broken--capital punishment if necessary. Note: it is not about salvation. The context is about "cruel oppression, spoiling his brother by violence, not doing good among his neighbors", etc. These matters have nothing to do with salvation. They are matters of the law, and this man is breaking them.

Then in verse 20

20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
--The son of this cruel wicked man shall not bear that cruel wicked man's punishment. Why should he? He didn't commit his father's crimes! This is civil law if you pay attention to the context.

 

Certainly I am not arguing against your own free will right to choose whatever you wish.

I am just saying that evaluating doctrine on a sola scriptura basis is the Protestant method that has been out there for a while. It the way it is applied is in those special cases where tradition does not square with the bible.

If you were a pastor or Sunday School teacher and could either preach popular "peace and safety" and "heal the wounds of my People slightly" (on this specific subject) or you could preach the warning messages of Scripture just as they read --which would be the safer course of action?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Context is everything.

Ezekiel is warning Israel - a nation in rebellion and in Babylonian Captivity.

God says to give them these hard messages "whether they listen or not" Ezek 3:5.

They are in rebellion and NO the civil laws are not wiping out all the wicked leaving only the righteous alive not in Ezekiel's day NOR in any day that has followed from his day to this.

The ONLY time it would EVER be true that the righteous do not die - and the wicked do die (in Israel) from that day onward - is the 2nd coming.

This chapter is dealing with salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Truth is Bob, that many years ago I saw all the scriptures you have put forth to argue that salvation could be lost. I could actually show you quite a few more.

So, I did a study and LOTS of prayer to determine if salvation can be lost or if salvation is secure. And I came to the conclusion that all of the scriptures that seem to say a person can lose salvation are not really saying that. There are just so many scriptures that show we cannot lose salvation.

And besides, it doesn't make sense. If we are saved by trusting Jesus (which we are), then how can we keep ourselves by works? Nonsensical.

No, if you have to work, then that is not trust, that is work. Scripture makes that absolutely clear.

I admit some of these passages are tough to understand, but scripture cannot contradict itself. Scripture says we are baptized into Jesus's body, we are literally fused to him.

The new birth is like physical birth, it takes two. You are comprised of your mother and father. But you are not your mother or your father, you are a new creation, you are Bob. You are an individual.

Likewise, when we trust Jesus, our spirit is cleansed by the blood and joined to the Holy Spirit. This is the new birth.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

This is something that can't be undone Bob. We are literally fused to the Holy Spirit. We are now comprised of our spirit combined or joined to the Holy Spirit. We are not our old man, and we are not God, but we share or partake of the divine nature.

We cannot fall away in unbelief because the Holy Spirit remains in us and the Holy Spirit cannot fall away. We are PRESERVED. We do not persevere. We are KEPT, we do not endure.

Now, then why does it say he that endures to the end shall be saved? Because a true believer will endure to the end, he will not deny Christ in the tribulation. The Father will literally speak in these persons.

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Do you see here who shall endure to the end? Those that have the Holy Spirit in them. Those that fall away were never saved, never had the Spirit.

So, you have to study, but I believe if you do you will find out you cannot lose your salvation. We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

 

Ok well if we look at this from a "What makes sense" then stop and think about it.

The only "danger" is that you are not saved, not a Christian - and yet you think that maybe you are.

ALL the warnings in scripture would be like Matt 7 "I never knew you" or "you were never really with us to start with" or ...

We would have ZERO messages about "I forgave you ALL ..." that RETURNS the forgiven debt.

We would have ZERO "I do all things for the sake of the Gospel that I may be a fellow partaker OF IT ... I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".

We would have ZERO "you have fallen FROM Grace, you have been severed FROM Christ"

We would have zero illustrations of the seed and the 4 different kinds of Ground 3 of which have the dead seed "spring to LIFE" and two of them have the plant then die away.

We would have ZERO "he who perseveres until the end will be saved".

We would have ZERO "pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching... AS you do this you will ensure salvation for yourself"

ZERO texts about "you stand by your faith.. FEAR for if He did no spare them neither will he spare you".

Let's face it - going in favor of OSAS and against these bible texts results in a "downsizing effort" not at all unlike what the Calvinists engage in.

And we already know that Calvinism makes no sense.

in Christ,

Bob

 

No, that is not the problem. Sometimes we ASSUME words mean what they do not really mean, as when Paul said he did not want to be a "castaway". Does that mean lost? Perhaps, but perhaps not. That is the problem.

If we do not forgive we will be given over to the tormentors. What does that mean? Lost? Perhaps, but perhaps not. It says we will be handed over to the tormentors until we pay the last penny, this is not hell, hell is ETERNAL.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

See the phrase "till he should pay all that was due unto him"? That implies the debt will be paid, but we know hell is eternal. So I believe this is speaking of something else. I will be honest and tell you I am not exactly sure what it means, but I do not believe it is speaking of hell.

And who are the tormentors? Hell is a place, not persons, so this does not quite fit the idea of hell.

Oh, we have all seen movies or books that show little demons with pitchforks tormenting lost persons, but we have nothing in scripture to support that. The rich man who died and went to hell almost seems to be completely alone. That would be horrible, to be alone for eternity. But he is not being tormented by tormentors.

So, this scripture might have another meaning, that is all I am saying. And I do not think scripture like this can override scripture like 1 John 3:9 that says the person born of God cannot sin.

 

Hardly, Ezekiel was expounding on a principle given pre-Israel, from the earliest of times:
Genesis 9:5 `And only your blood for your lives do I require; from the hand of every living thing I require it, and from the hand of man, from the hand of every man's brother I require the life of man;
6 whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man is his blood shed: for in the image of God hath He made man.

 

Not at all applicable since in Ezek 18 it is the "soul that sins" that dies.

In Gen 9 it is the "man who murders" dies.

Very very different (unless you are the Taliban - which obviously you are not).

 

It is applicable. Read, starting from the context:
Ezekiel 18:10 And--he hath begotten a son, A burglar--a shedder of blood, And he hath made a brother of one of these,
--He is speaking of the hypothetical man that commits these many crimes: murder, burglary, etc. Ezekiel, in the following verses describes a list of horrible crimes that describes one who could end up to be a notorious criminal, but at the very least, one with a very bad reputation.

Is it right for a son to pay the penalty for his sins. Even in our society this happens. "Oh, your the son of that so and so; I am not going to let my children play with you."
This law was written to prevent that attitude. Ezekiel explains carefully that the son shall bear the responsibility and penalty for his sin, but not his father's crime. He has no responsibility to carry on the burden of his father's bad reputation, and wickedness. That is the teaching in verse 20:

Ezekiel 18:19 And ye have said, Wherefore hath not the son, Borne of the iniquity of the father? And--the son judgment and righteousness hath done, All My statutes he hath kept, And he doeth them, he surely liveth.
20 The soul that doth sin--it doth die. A son doth not bear of the iniquity of the father, And a father doth not bear of the iniquity of the son, The righteousness of the righteous is on him, And the wickedness of the wicked is on him.

 

I did the exact same thing about 15 years ago. The passages which speak on eternal life/salvation/born of God are overwhelmingly explicit concerning security in Christ/OSAS. And those passages of scripture which "appear" to be against the doctrine of OSAS, when studied properly with prayer, actually become clear that they are not speaking against the believer's promise he has in God keeping him unto the day of redemption.

But this type of inquiry to understand takes work in study and prayer, and one must divorce himself of any preconceived or biased opinion when setting himself out to determine this issue.

I remember back when I was struggling with this doctrine. I was listening to both arguments for and against and it appeared to me at the time both sides had very good points for their position. But, I knew both could not be right. I can remember praying out to God in frustration saying Lord I need to know the truth about this!! The reason I needed to know was because God was leading me into teaching and this issue is paramount to everything taught about the person of Jesus Christ.

So I listed all the passages in question against OSAS and all the passages which appeared to declared OSAS. When comparing them side by side, all of the ones which appeared to be saying OSAS were very specific concerning salvation/eternal life/born of God. All the one's which appeared to be saying against OSAS did NOT have these words/terms as their central context. From there the Spirit led me to the conclusion that salvation is either of Jesus Christ or of me, there could be no blending of the two concepts (Eph2)

There is just no other Spirit filled way to teach about Jesus Christ without giving Him all the credit and all the glory for redeeming mankind! Any other teaching is to diminish His work and seeks to glorify the man. NEVER will I say look what I have done for my salvation, NEVER! And never will I teach others to look unto themselves for their own salvation. It's ALL about Jesus Christ, this makes it by default OSAS. raying:

 

Ezekiel is writing to a nation in rebellion they are not punishing the wicked.

Nobody reading the book of Ezekiel has ever argued that all the wicked were being put to death under the "Soul that sins it shall die" rule of Ezek 18:24 vs 26 list no specific sins - just committing sin in general as is the case with 18:4 "The soul that SINS it will die".

At no point during Ezekiel's life are all the wicked in Israel killed.

At no point during Ezekiel's life do no righteous people die.

This is about salvation.

"For why will you die O HOUSE OF ISRAEL".

Who is the civil authority that you propose is going to sort out the HOUSE OF ISRAEL - so that the HOUSE OF ISRAEL dies??

I propose it is "God" and the issue is salvation.

And "obviously" in the text when a wicked man repents and does good "he lives". This is NOT true for someone who has been comitting murder then decides to be kind and loving. The death penalty is still given in a strictly "civil justice" context that you so "need" in Ezek 18.

But in Ezek 18 that wicked man LIVES and is counted as righteous by God who has not pleasure in the death of the wicked. That does NOT happen in civil just when the murderer decides to then be kind and loving to others.

This is obviously a salvation context.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Even when one writes to a nation they speak of how they are sinning. This was one of their sins--not carrying out the law--civil law.

From verse 1-24 the entire context deals with one individual, one soul, one father, one son, etc., and a list of many different specific crimes all with specific penalties that a son should not have to pay for if the father had committed them. That is the context and meaning.

No one said they were; are they in the U.S.?
There will not be perfect justice until the Millennial Kingdom.

What a profound statement.
"It is appointed unto man once to die." People die every day; both wicked and righteous. It can't be stopped.

Not in the first 24 verses

In verse 25, THEN, the Lord turns his attention toward the nation of Israel:
Ezekiel 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
--But the discussion between the son bearing the iniquity of the father is now over. In the following 4 verses he uses some of that civil law as an example and an analogy.
Then he concludes with this:

Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
--Israel was God's people. It is not a matter of salvation. It is a matter of judgment and chastisement.

 

Adam Clarke - says Ezek 18 is about eternal salvation

Verse 4
All souls are mine - Equally so; I am the Father of the spirits of all flesh, and shall deal impartially with the whole.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die - None shall die for another‘s crimes, none shall be saved by another‘s righteousness. Here is the general judgment relative to the righteousness and unrighteousness of men, and the influence of one man‘s state on that of another; particularly in respect to their moral conduct.

Verse 20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die - Hitherto we have had to do with the simple cases or the righteous and the wicked; of him who lived and died a holy man, and of him who lived and died a wicked man. But there are two cases behind:
1.That of the wicked man, who repents and turns to God.
2.That of the righteous man, who backslides, and does not return to God by repentance. On both these cases God decides thus: -

Verse 21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins - And afterwards walk according to the character of the righteous already specified shall he find mercy, and be for ever saved? Yes.

Verse 22
[FONT=&quot]All his transgressions - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Shall be so completely forgiven by God‘s mercy, that they shall not be even mentioned to him; and if he live and die in this recovered state, he shall live with God to all eternity. [/FONT]

 

In the Ezek 18 text when a wicked man repents and does good "he lives". This is NOT true for someone who has been committing murder then decides to be kind and loving. The death penalty is still given in a strictly "civil justice" context that you so "need" in Ezek 18, yet in Ezek 18 - he is forgiven.

No justice model in Israel for civil justice - was doing that -- no not in all of time.

But in Ezek 18 that wicked man LIVES and is counted as righteous by God who has not pleasure in the death of the wicked. That does NOT happen in civil just when the murderer decides to then be kind and loving to others.

This is obviously a salvation context.

 

[FONT=&quot]Burton Coffman on Ezek 18 and eternal life[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Vs 4[/FONT]
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die ..." (Ezekiel 18:4). A number of scholars like to emphasize their allegation that, "eternal death" is not mentioned here, only physical death; but we believe more is intended. As Leath put it, "What is meant here is the separation of the soul from its life-source, the Spirit of God (Deuteronomy 30:25; Jeremiah 21:8; and Proverbs 11:19)."[6] Pearson also agreed in this, saying, "The word `die' is used in both a literal and an eschatological sense. 'To live' is to enter into the perfect kingdom of the Lord (which was at that time in the future); and `to die,' is to have no share in it."

Verse 21
"But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he hath done, he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
"Keep all my statutes ..." (Ezekiel 18:21). Note the word all. Again, we see the truth that God is not merely concerned with moral requirements of the holy Law, but with the strict human observance of all of it.
The strong inference here that the passage may indirectly refer to Manasseh occurs in the fact that despite his being such an evil monarch, at the end of his days, Manasseh turned from his sins and returned to the true God.
Regarding Ezekiel 18:21, here, Beasley-Murray stated that, "A man is not only free from the sins of his father, but he may also be free from his own sins, if he so wishes; he can repent and turn away from them."[13]
This passage regarding the possibility of a man becoming free from his own sins has been called, "the most precious word in the whole Book of Ezekiel."[14]
What is God's ultimate objective for human life? It certainly is not the destruction of the wicked. As an apostle said, "God is longsuffering to you-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). "God's pleasure is that the wicked should turn from his evil way, and live."[15]
The Calvinistic nonsense that a person "once saved is always saved" encounters here a shocking refutation in the behavior of the righteous man, "who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and all the abominations that the wicked man doeth (Ezekiel 18:24)." Could such a thing occur? Is the Word of God true?

 

[FONT=&quot]Matthew Henry [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even Matthew Henry who clings to OSAS no matter what the Text says admits this text is about salvation -- heaven or hell.[/FONT]

Verses 21-29
The wicked man would be saved, if he turned from his evil ways. The true penitent is a true believer. None of his former transgressions shall be mentioned unto him, but in the righteousness which he has done, as the fruit of faith and the effect of conversion, he shall surely live. The question is not whether the truly righteous ever become apostates. It is certain that many who for a time were thought to be righteous, do so, while Ezekiel 18:26, Ezekiel 18:27 speaks the fulness of pardoning mercy: when sin is forgiven, it is blotted out, it is remembered no more. In their righteousness they shall live; not for their righteousness, as if that were an atonement for their sins, but in their righteousness, which is one of the blessings purchased by the Mediator. What encouragement a repenting, returning sinner has to hope for pardon and life according to this promise! In Ezekiel 18:28 is the beginning and progress of repentance. True believers watch and pray, and continue to the end, and they are saved. In all our disputes with God, he is in the right, and we are in the wrong.