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Featured Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Thus Matt 18 is a perfect illustration by Christ of the Ezek 18 truth already in scripture in His day.

    Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


    As well as the affirmation of His teaching in Matt 6

    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
    [/FONT]
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    MH is commenting on the same verses that I told you were directed at Israel. You are saying nothing new, except that he has a slightly different take on it.

    What about the passage just before this one; verses 10-21, what does he say there?
    The relationship is between a father and his child, obviously.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matthew Henry states that this is a discussion about eternal salvation - not merely civil justice.


    " Ezekiel 18:26, Ezekiel 18:27 speaks the fulness of pardoning mercy: when sin is forgiven, it is blotted out, it is remembered no more". this not talking about civil justice.

    "In their righteousness they shall live; not for their righteousness, as if that were an atonement for their sins, but in their righteousness, which is one of the blessings purchased by the Mediator."
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Adam Clarke also points out that Ezek 18 is about eternal salvation and cannot be limited to "civil justice".

    Adam Clarke - says Ezek 18 is about eternal salvation

    Verse 4
    All souls are mine - Equally so; I am the Father of the spirits of all flesh, and shall deal impartially with the whole.
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die - None shall die for another‘s crimes, none shall be saved by another‘s righteousness. Here is the general judgment relative to the righteousness and unrighteousness of men, and the influence of one man‘s state on that of another; particularly in respect to their moral conduct.

    Verse 20
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die - Hitherto we have had to do with the simple cases or the righteous and the wicked; of him who lived and died a holy man, and of him who lived and died a wicked man. But there are two cases behind:
    1.That of the wicked man, who repents and turns to God.
    2.That of the righteous man, who backslides, and does not return to God by repentance. On both these cases God decides thus: -

    Verse 21
    But if the wicked will turn from all his sins - And afterwards walk according to the character of the righteous already specified shall he find mercy, and be for ever saved? Yes.

    Verse 22
    [FONT=&quot]All his transgressions - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Shall be so completely forgiven by God‘s mercy, that they shall not be even mentioned to him; and if he live and die in this recovered state, he shall live with God to all eternity. [/FONT]
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matthew Henry states that it cannot be limited to civil matters but Ezek 18 applies to eternal salvation.

    Your point that it can include them does not change the fact that the forgiveness revoked for the Righteous and full forgiveness for the wicked are eternal salvation issues both in Ezek 18, and in Matt 18.

    Time to consider the Free Will Baptist option.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Burton Coffman - vs 21
    This passage regarding the possibility of a man becoming free from his own sins has been called, "the most precious word in the whole Book of Ezekiel."[14]
    What is God's ultimate objective for human life? It certainly is not the destruction of the wicked. As an apostle said, "God is longsuffering to you-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). "God's pleasure is that the wicked should turn from his evil way, and live."[15]
    The Calvinistic nonsense that a person "once saved is always saved" encounters here a shocking refutation in the behavior of the righteous man, "who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and all the abominations that the wicked man doeth (Ezekiel 18:24)." Could such a thing occur? Is the Word of God true?
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In the example given in Ez.18:1-25, the nation of Israel is giving an excuse. But it becomes painfully obvious that if the person does not repent he will die a physical death. That is the result of civil law. MH points that out.
    However, that being said, if he dies unrepentant, as is with all OT characters he may suffer eternally, having never repented initially in his life. IOW, he was never saved in the first place. MH also points that out. He, all his life has lived a life uncharacteristic of a saved person. It has brought upon him both civil death and eternal death--obviously.

    The fruit of a saved person is not murder and robbery and the oppression of the poor. That is the fruit of the unsaved. However the emphasis of the first 25 verses is still on civil law.
     
  8. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    IMO, all of the many LISTS (such as the one below) concern habitual unrepented-of sin.

    Rev 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
    and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
    sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the
    lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
    Note: “… you know that NO murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 John 3:15).


    However, the occasional sins of the BAC are handled by using 1 John 1:7-10.
    .
     
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Moses killed an Egyptian, David had Uriah killed, Samson killed 30 men just to satisfy a lost wager.

    All of these men murdered, yet all of them are saved.

    How do you explain that?
     
  10. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Let's see if my totals are correct ... pause ... Mmmm, yes, 847 moronic posts (in total).

    .
     
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    No, it says you have over 1,000 now ;-)
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    :laugh: :laugh:
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There is such a thing as confession, repentance and forgiveness of sin.

    for both the saved and the lost. All should confess their sins and seek pardon.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Burton Coffman - vs 21
    This passage regarding the possibility of a man becoming free from his own sins has been called, "the most precious word in the whole Book of Ezekiel."[14]
    What is God's ultimate objective for human life? It certainly is not the destruction of the wicked. As an apostle said, "God is longsuffering to you-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). "God's pleasure is that the wicked should turn from his evil way, and live."[15]
    The Calvinistic nonsense that a person "once saved is always saved" encounters here a shocking refutation in the behavior of the righteous man, "who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and all the abominations that the wicked man doeth (Ezekiel 18:24)." Could such a thing occur? Is the Word of God true?




    1. In Ezek 18 the scenario for sins that result in death includes not paying back a pledge, lending money at interest, oppressing the poor, failure to follow all of God's commandments in scripture.

    These are sins for which Israel had no death penalty.

    Yet in Ezek 18 there are sins for which the wicked would die.

    This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

    2. In Ezek 18 the one who murders is considered righteous if he turns and decides to follow God's commandments. There was no allowance for such a thing in the civil laws of the nation.

    This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

    3. In Ezek 18 the wicked are condemned and die - the Righteous do not. Yet Ezek is writing to the nation in rebellion whose leaders, judges, courts, kings were corrupt. They were in fact mistreating the righteous. The wicked were in government.

    This is clearly in the context of salvation and cannot be restricted to civil penalties existing in Ezekiel's day.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Never got an answer from this question Bob. Want to try it now?
     
  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Oh, so you can sin all you want, as long as you ask forgiveness AFTER you sin. Oh, I see.

    What happens if you are speeding and have an accident and are killed before you can ask forgiveness for breaking the law, do you go to hell?

    But if you manage to squeeze out "Forgive me!" before you hit the tree you are OK? Yeah, that sounds right. :rolleyes:
     
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The insecurity camp does not like real life application details. It kinda thwarts their whole campaign against Grace.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by Winman [​IMG]
    Moses killed an Egyptian, David had Uriah killed, Samson killed 30 men just to satisfy a lost wager.

    All of these men murdered, yet all of them are saved.

    How do you explain that?





    Sure. And as Christ said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My father..." in true"By their fruits you shall know them" fashion.

    As Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

    (And let's not forget 1Cor 6).

    1John 3:4-12 tells us not only that "sin is transgression of the Law" but that everyone who has the hope of eternal life "purifies himself" through the Romans 8 process of "By the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh"


    I never said "lost each time you sin" -- where did you get that from? Steaver?? (Just kidding Steaver)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #78 BobRyan, Nov 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2013
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Then if one doesn't have to repent after each time they sin, then after how many sins is the minimal requirement before confession and repentance is required?
    Five or ten sins?
    One or two days of sins?
    One week of sins?
    Twenty to fifty sins?
    How long can one go before God is going to send them to Hell Bob?
    Where is the breaking point?
     
  20. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Roberto,

    How long are you going to continue to explain the truth to these people?
    Because they insist on refusing to accept the obvious.

    God is love ... God is merciful ... God is understanding, full of grace!
    In being these things, God cannot be a legalist ... as are most Baptists.

    It is all about the attitude of the heart ... our hearts.
    The BAC who truly hates the sins that he commits ... sincerely repents of them.
    If he/she is late on a few of them, the Lord understands and forgives.

    It really is that simple!

    .
     
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