I know the Calvinist view is not true, it is precluded by scripture. Why did you skip over 2 Peter 2:1 which says Christ bought those heading for swift destruction? Anyone using the word "atonement" rather than reconciliation does not really understand the notion. Using the word "atonement" Calvinists conflate what was accomplished on the cross with what is accomplished when God places an individual into Christ.
So Christ's death provides the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, Reconciliation provided for all humanity and offered to all who hear and understand the gospel. But the benefits of reconciliation are only "received" by those God puts into Christ.
Thus everyone of the "many are called" has the opportunity for salvation, but only the "few are chosen" receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross.
Limited Atonement: God's Power to Save
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Humble Disciple, Jul 15, 2021.
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Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
For Unconditional Election, when I was Born-Again I was never preached to by a preacher of any kind. I read the Bible in my room one night and did what Christ said to do. At that moment I can recall making a conscious decision that either I fully believe what God says in the Gospels or I don't. Obviously I chose to believe, but I was definitely presented with a choice.
My thought is that God elects those whom He foreknew would accept the Gospel. Many are drawn, but the drawing is not always effectual as man's free will interferes. Without God's Prevenient Grace at the time of drawing man cannot hope to choose correctly. I have no idea what camp that puts me in either ;).
I'd be happy to read your thoughts on it though. I always give brethren a fair shake :). -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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If limited atonement, unconditional election, and other Calvinist doctrines make you think less of God, don't believe them. Your love for God matters more than the rightness of your theology.
1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.
My only hope is that you won't become prejudiced against Calvinists as somehow being Bible-rejecting heretics. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
What I do find surprising is the Cognitive Dissonance that is exhibited by so many calvinists. -
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Brightfame52 Well-Known Member
scott
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
See unbelievers Christ died for, God for them has been propitiated, His wrath appeased ! -
What limited atonement means is that not a drop of Jesus' blood was wasted, that not an iota of His suffering was endured in vain, because it will definitely save everyone it was intended to save.
Not potentially, but definitely.
It might seem like a harsh belief, but limited atonement gives the most assurance for believers that they will be saved and it gives Jesus the most glory, that none of His suffering was endured in vain. -
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RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
The Calvinist determinism is to me the biggest flaw in Calvinism. Calvinism has put God into that box and will fight tooth and nail to keep Him there.
If you want to believe that way it is your choice, well actually that is wrong as under your determinism you can not make choices and what you believe has been determined for you. -
So far, you repeat your philosophy of men like the beat of an Orc drum. You have used and abused the Bible in your attempt to lift up yourself. Any Godward Christian will read your words and know that God does not support your words. -
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Did anyone say God's plan is not to save rebellious humans according to His perfect redemption plan? Nope so more obfuscation. Then we get the usual you, you you false charges like a sand lot bully. Give it a rest... -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
Your determinism really does cause you a great deal of trouble. Look at it this way, as soon as a person tries to *convince* anyone to believe that we are not factually and actually free moral agents, they are explicitly denying their beliefs and/or assertions that we are not free moral agents.
Further, if it really were true that we are not free moral agents,
then
we could not reason,
we could not think,
we could not believe,
we could not know.
God's will can be resisted: The Bible has a number of verses showing that man CAN resist God's will: Joh_5:40; Mat_23:37; Luk_13:34; Act_7:51; Mat_21:42; Act_4:11; Luk_7:29-30; 2Th_1:8-9; Rom_10:21; 2Ki_17:14-18
Hard determinism is a natural result of the Calvinistic emphasis on God’s sovereignty. Let me be clear: Every orthodox believer believes God is sovereign. But the classic, Reformed view of God’s sovereignty is a distortion of Scripture. I’m weary of Calvinists who accuse me of denying God’s sovereignty because I reject their views. God IS sovereign. And the free will view that I hold to exalts God’s sovereignty significantly more than Calvin’s view of God’s sovereignty. -
John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.
When John 12:32 is interpreted as referring to all people without exception, rather than all kinds of people in every ethnic group and station of life, the conclusion is universalism, which is an unbiblical teaching.
The Greek word translated as “draw” is “helko,” which means “to drag.” John 12:32 must be read in context of John 6:44, which promises that all who are drawn to Jesus will inherit the resurrection unto life on the last day:
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
If Jesus were drawing all people to Himself without exception, then so many wouldn’t have turned away:
John 6
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
If Jesus were drawing all people to Himself without exception, He wouldn’t have said this to the Pharisees:
John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 are interpreted to mean that God intends to save all people without exception, but they must be read in context of other passages of John’s writings:
John 11
51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
John 11:52 says that Jesus died, not for all people without exception, but for “the children of God who were scattered abroad,” just as Jesus says in His priestly prayer of John 17:9 that He wasn’t praying for the whole world, but to those given to Him by the Father for salvation.
If John meant the whole world without exception, then the entire world must have been following Jesus in John 12:19, rather than just a large crowd.
John 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
John’s references to Jesus dying for the world’s sins includes people from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, rather than every individual without exception.
Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
The only way that Jn12:32 would be interpreted as leading to universalism is from the calvinist view. Just because Christ Jesus draws people does not require that they all come to Him, some will reject the gospel message. But you can not see that as it does not fit your determinism.
Helkúō draw G1670 is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come). Word Study Dic.
When you take the time to look at Jn 6:44 in context you can learn something. Look at what Jn 6:45 tells us "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." So we see that the ones that come to Christ Jesus are those that have heard and learned and then they come to Him. They are not dragged as you would have it. You have miss read the text.
Jn 6:64-65 now why you would pick this I am not sure. Here we have Christ Jesus telling these people they can make a choice "there are some of you who do not believe." thus some must have believed what they had seen and heard. Once again we see that Christ Jesus is not dragging them, as you would have it, He is just saying the offer is there do what you will with it. Christ Jesus knowing who would believe and who would not did not cause either choice.
I have to ask you how did you ever get that interpretation of Jn 3:16? Have you not read that verse in context? Try it I think you will see that it is a invitation to all that believe. That is a universal offer but it has to be accepted as we see in Jn 3:18.
How can anyone take what you say seriously when it is so obvious that you write with a clear agenda. Jn 11:52 yes Gods children are scattered thru out the nations of the world. You should know that Christ Jesus was talking to His disciples in Jn 17:9 but I note that once again you avoid context. Look at Jn 17:20 where we see Him now praying for those that would believe in Him thru the teaching of those same disciples.
Must admit I did expect better of you. This is just proves what I have said many times, Some calvinists tend to abuse the scriptures. -
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